So, Iraq hasn't been getting much play.. but a lot has been going on.

[thomez]

Modern "insurgents" understand today what Washington understood 230 years ago. They don't have to win the war, they just have to keep from losing it.

Their methodology works perfect in this regard.

[TekDragon]

Originally Posted by thomez

Modern "insurgents" understand today what Washington understood 230 years ago. They don't have to win the war, they just have to keep from losing it.

Their methodology works perfect in this regard.

And they've got a vocal number of the American public "on their side", just like in Vietnam. What more do they need?

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by TekDragon

And they've got a vocal number of the American public "on their side", just like in Vietnam. What more do they need?

Let me guess, you think liberals are on the insurgents side.

[TekDragon]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Let me guess, you think liberals are on the insurgents side.

I think that the liberal opponents of the Vietnam war directly resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of american lives and hundreds of thousands of civilian lives by giving comfort and aid to the North Vietnamese and convincing their leadership to not surrender following the Tet Offensive.

I think that the liberal opposition to the Iraqi war is doing the same thing now. By never placing blame on the militants for civlian deaths and instead blaming the US, by constantly clamoring for a withdraw of troops, and by completely ignoring the record setting pace of reconstruction - I belive that the liberals in America are providing more support to the insurgents and militants than Al Quedae leadership could wish for.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by TekDragon

I think that the liberal opponents of the Vietnam war directly resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of american lives and hundreds of thousands of civilian lives by giving comfort and aid to the North Vietnamese and convincing their leadership to not surrender following the Tet Offensive.

I think that the liberal opposition to the Iraqi war is doing the same thing now. By never placing blame on the militants for civlian deaths and instead blaming the US, by constantly clamoring for a withdraw of troops, and by completely ignoring the record setting pace of reconstruction - I belive that the liberals in America are providing more support to the insurgents and militants than Al Quedae leadership could wish for.

Why does someone have to be labled "liberal" for opposing a war?

[TekDragon]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Why does someone have to be labled "liberal" for opposing a war?

If the shoe fits, wear it. I've seen a number of conservatives who oppose the Iraq War. They frame their argument in a way that doesn't paint the insurgent who murders 50 women and children as being a "freedom fighters" and the US as being "evil occupiers". Therefore, their opposition to the Iraq war does not provide aid and comfort to the militants the way the liberal opposition does.

[SICKGUY]

Originally Posted by motivez

Well, we have to "pussy foot" around the terrorists for fear of collateral damage. We can't do what Israel is doing in Lebanon because our job is to protect and provide security for the people while we try to fix the problem(s) we've created.

If we just go in and carpet bomb cities where the Insurgency / Foreign Fighters are, we're not going to have any civilians left to protect. There have already been well over 100k+ civilian deaths in Iraq, we don't need more to solve the problem, we need less.

we are stuck. is there really a solution on how to get out of iraq withouth looking like losers?

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by TekDragon

I think that the liberal opponents of the Vietnam war directly resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of american lives and hundreds of thousands of civilian lives by giving comfort and aid to the North Vietnamese and convincing their leadership to not surrender following the Tet Offensive.

I think that the liberal opposition to the Iraqi war is doing the same thing now. By never placing blame on the militants for civlian deaths and instead blaming the US, by constantly clamoring for a withdraw of troops, and by completely ignoring the record setting pace of reconstruction - I belive that the liberals in America are providing more support to the insurgents and militants than Al Quedae leadership could wish for.

[Scrum]

I found this interesting letter to Clinton during the war in the Balkans.

Dear Mr. President:

The American Legion, a wartime veterans organization of nearly three-million members, urges the immediate withdrawal of American troops participating in "Operation Allied Force.''

The National Executive Committee of The American Legion, meeting in Indianapolis today, adopted Resolution 44, titled "The American Legion's Statement on Yugoslavia.'' This resolution was debated and adopted unanimously.

Mr. President, the United States Armed Forces should never be committed to wartime operations unless the following conditions are fulfilled:

* That there be a clear statement by the President of why it is in our vital national interests to be engaged in hostilities;

* Guidelines be established for the mission, including a clear exit strategy;

* That there be support of the mission by the U.S. Congress and the American people; and

* That it be made clear that U.S. Forces will be commanded only by U.S. officers whom we acknowledge are superior military leaders.

It is the opinion of The American Legion, which I am sure is shared by the majority of Americans, that three of the above listed conditions have not been met in the current joint operation with NATO ("Operation Allied Force'').

In no case should America commit its Armed Forces in the absence of clearly defined objectives agreed upon by the U.S. Congress in accordance with Article I, Section 8, of the Constitution of the United States.

Sincerely,
Harold L. "Butch'' Miller,
National Commander

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by TekDragon

If the shoe fits, wear it. I've seen a number of conservatives who oppose the Iraq War. They frame their argument in a way that doesn't paint the insurgent who murders 50 women and children as being a "freedom fighters" and the US as being "evil occupiers". Therefore, their opposition to the Iraq war does not provide aid and comfort to the militants the way the liberal opposition does.

That's crap. You're very "liberal" yourself with your "liberal" portrayal of people who oppose war. Besides that....I still don't see how someone who calls them "freedom fighters" is automatically liberal to begin with? Name calling is the lowest form of debate.

[thomez]

Originally Posted by TekDragon

If the shoe fits, wear it. I've seen a number of conservatives who oppose the Iraq War. They frame their argument in a way that doesn't paint the insurgent who murders 50 women and children as being a "freedom fighters" and the US as being "evil occupiers". Therefore, their opposition to the Iraq war does not provide aid and comfort to the militants the way the liberal opposition does.

I guess I'm a conservative opponent then.

[Crazy]

Originally Posted by TekDragon

If the shoe fits, wear it.

You mean if the stereotype is seen, use it?

Originally Posted by TekDragon

I've seen a number of conservatives who oppose the Iraq War. They frame their argument in a way that doesn't paint the insurgent who murders 50 women and children as being a "freedom fighters" and the US as being "evil occupiers".

Please show proof of this. I'd like to hear how these "conservatives", in the general terms you provided, word their oppositions. Compared to, oh say, whacked out liberals who don't represent the entire party.


Mind you I'm a liberal, serve, and just came back from Iraq. I took a bit of offense to your statement. Sorry.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by Crazy

You mean if the stereotype is seen, use it?



Please show proof of this. I'd like to hear how these "conservatives", in the general terms you provided, word their oppositions. Compared to, oh say, whacked out liberals who don't represent the entire party.


Mind you I'm a liberal, serve, and just came back from Iraq. I took a bit of offense to your statement. Sorry.

You are going to fit in great here.

[Crazy]

Seriously now, you're going to sit there and blame people back home for the lives of many overseas? Come now, attack the root of the problem man. Who sent them over there in the first place? If you're going to point the finger stop misplacing it and get to the crux of the matter. I'm tired of people who are just exercising their free speech getting labeled for shit that isn't of their doing. If you want to blame anyone, blame the man in charge.

I whole heartedly would give my life for those people protesting at soldier's funerals. Do I agree with it? Hell no, I think it is messed up, but you know what I won't sit there and blame them for the lives of many overseas. I fight for freedom as a whole, not just the freedom that I like. I am not allowed to discriminate. Our country, thankfully, has these freedoms... as many that are left , we still have them, somewhat.

However, if you're going to throw the blame card on the table, make sure you have the puppeteer as the face of it, not the person telling you what they think. You're imposing your views onto other people and trying to tell them what they can and cannot say with their freedoms, and I pretty much outright resent that. Even though I resent more how some of them go about their protesting, it's still messed up that you would say they had a hand in killing soldier's lives. That in itself is entirely a Post Hoc fallacy in logic.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Crazy

Seriously now, you're going to sit there and blame people back home for the lives of many overseas? Come now, attack the root of the problem man. Who sent them over there in the first place? If you're going to point the finger stop misplacing it and get to the crux of the matter. I'm tired of people who are just exercising their free speech getting labeled for shit that isn't of their doing. If you want to blame anyone, blame the man in charge.

I whole heartedly would give my life for those people protesting at soldier's funerals. Do I agree with it? Hell no, I think it is messed up, but you know what I won't sit there and blame them for the lives of many overseas. I fight for freedom as a whole, not just the freedom that I like. I am not allowed to discriminate. Our country, thankfully, has these freedoms... as many that are left , we still have them, somewhat.

However, if you're going to throw the blame card on the table, make sure you have the puppeteer as the face of it, not the person telling you what they think. You're imposing your views onto other people and trying to tell them what they can and cannot say with their freedoms, and I pretty much outright resent that. Even though I resent more how some of them go about their protesting, it's still messed up that you would say they had a hand in killing soldier's lives. That in itself is entirely a Post Hoc fallacy in logic.

I like when I have backup that's halfway competent.

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by TekDragon

I think that the liberal opponents of the Vietnam war directly resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of american lives and hundreds of thousands of civilian lives by giving comfort and aid to the North Vietnamese and convincing their leadership to not surrender following the Tet Offensive.

I think that the liberal opposition to the Iraqi war is doing the same thing now. By never placing blame on the militants for civlian deaths and instead blaming the US, by constantly clamoring for a withdraw of troops, and by completely ignoring the record setting pace of reconstruction - I belive that the liberals in America are providing more support to the insurgents and militants than Al Quedae leadership could wish for.

wow..again

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

I think they have a careers section

[Thorgrim]

U.S. military spokesman Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said there had been an average of 34 attacks a day involving U.S. and Iraqi forces in and around the capital since Friday — up sharply from the daily average of 24 registered between June 14 and July 13.

Caldwell said insurgents were streaming into the capital for “an all-out assault against the Baghdad area.”


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13952922/

How exactly would we react if Baghdad was taken over and the Green Zone was sacked?

[DosEquis]

Did you watch hardball tonight Thorgrim?

its on again in 30 minutes ..worth the watch. Especially to hear conservatives like Pat Buchanan give his view.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

Did you watch hardball tonight Thorgrim?

missed it, and its 230 i dont feel like reading transcripts...cliffs?