Israel breaks its word, invites attack from Hamas

Thorgrim · 01-17-2007, 01:45 AM

JERUSALEM - The government on Monday published plans to build 44 homes in Israel's largest West Bank settlement, violating a pledge to the United States as Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was in the region on a peace-seeking mission.

Palestinians, who are to gain independence under the peace plan, vehemently oppose any Jewish settlement in the West Bank, claiming all of the territory as part of their future state.

"Building 44 new houses in the Maaleh Adumim settlement is one more Israeli violation of signed agreements with the Palestinians," said Khalil Tofakji, a former Palestinian negotiator, referring to accords signed over the years in Oslo and Cairo.

Israel seeking builders for West Bank - Yahoo! News

Ofcourse, right wing Israeli's don't value their word and despite having huge areas of land they've taken from the Palestinians, they aggitate and humiliate them more by going into their Palestinian's own West Bank to build big beautiful houses in the view of Palestinians

Nevermind the broken promises with the US, their government that spies on us...this didn't hit the Nightly News anywhere because of the extremely powerful Israeli lobby, I hear a lot of people talking about being patriotic but it's weird to hear us talk about how we are so much better than Europeans while we kowtow to the Israelis

Nonphixion · 01-17-2007, 03:21 AM

CAMERA is a very powerful Israeli lobby (one of many tens) in the United States.

And right now Isreal is commandeering more Palestinian land to build another one of their expansive and very lavish Jewish-only settlements.

Where Palestinians on Palestinian land have only 2 hours of running water per week, Jewish Settlements on Palestinian land have full 40,000 gallon swimming pools and green front lawns -- just as the new one here will.

Thorgrim · 01-17-2007, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by Nonphixion

CAMERA is a very powerful Israeli lobby (one of many tens) in the United States.

And right now Isreal is commandeering more Palestinian land to build another one of their expansive and very lavish Jewish-only settlements.

Where Palestinians on Palestinian land have only 2 hours of running water per week, Jewish Settlements on Palestinian land have full 40,000 gallon swimming pools and green front lawns -- just as the new one here will.

It's quite a vicious little act to show "who is running things" and who is getting screwed...apartheid indeed

and people wonder why a group so oppressed...totally stripped of their dignity, would strap a bomb to themselves and blow up a bus, i guarantee you most of the conservative community in America would be doing the exact same thing if China occupied the US with an iron fist

MKULTRA · 01-17-2007, 05:11 AM

Pro Street · 01-17-2007, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by MKULTRA

That graphic is so wrong i don't even know where to start.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 01-17-2007, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

they aggitate and humiliate them more by going into their Palestinian's own West Bank to build big beautiful houses in the view of Palestinians

The agitation doesn't end there. Who would want to build a house in such an unstable, violent area? It's going to be the most extreme, religious Jewish nuts they've got, who will not exactly inspire good relations with their neighbors.

MKULTRA · 01-18-2007, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by Pro Street

That graphic is so wrong i don't even know where to start.

Start wherever you want. I'm listening.

Pro Street · 01-18-2007, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by MKULTRA

Start wherever you want. I'm listening.

www.mideastweb.org/timeline

first there was no "Palestine" beforehand. They also didn't claim any territory.

2nd, the graph ignores the reasons for the territorial disputes.

3rd, It doesn't include the land given back already and is 7 years out of date

I can go on and on

MKULTRA · 01-18-2007, 10:21 PM

Well there were no Israelis before either, until it was formed in the 1940s. After Israel was formed then they recognized the Palestinian people and most of their land and that clearly has not been adhered to.

And I don't really care about what nation they had there. The British empire rolled through there and took care of that in the early 1900s. So I'm not here to get into technicalities about British controlled Arab states or anything like that.

But the main problem is that there were people living there who owned and farmed that land and then the Zionists(I'm using Zionist and not Jew because there is a difference) came in and some people sold willingly, and others where made to sell, and others were just killed.

I don't really believe much land has been given back. I know Israel recently took a large portion of land building that wall, which most weren't against the wall, it's just the fact it was built on land that wasn't theirs. And the chart has some errors but by and large, it is accurate. BTW your link was broken.

My main problem with this is that the American taxpayer is footing the bill for it. And IMHO we should've stepped out of that whole equation after Israel tried to sink the USS Liberty. Neither party is worth fighting for or paying for if you ask me and Israel, with its racial purity laws, anti-free speech laws, and aggressive behavior is hardly a beacon of freedom over there.

Pro Street · 01-19-2007, 12:28 AM

MidEast Web - Middle East Conflict (Palestinian-Israeli Conflict)

Which I consider to be the site to get a grasp on what's going on. You really should check it out.

Then again, I'm aware of your views on everything in the world so other than giving you this link I'm not going to bother any more.

MKULTRA · 01-19-2007, 02:52 AM

Well that's great. I see nothing in there about the map being wrong. I'll take a look at it though, it's quite a massive site. I'll have to remember to use that. When asked for specific evidence I'll just say 'I'm aware of your views on everything' but then link a related site that doesn't directly answer the question I was asked. I'm glad you know me so well though

I'm always listening and when and if people provide me with evidence then I take into account. But being reasonable, if I ask you a question and get no answer then I'll assume you don't know what you're talking about. I've seen nothing that indicates the vast majority of that map isn't correct.

Here is another great site for those of you wanting to look at the death tolls and POWs.

If Americans Knew - what every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine

Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed Since September 29, 2000
122 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 869 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Source)
Chart showing that approximately 5 times more Palestinian children have been killed than Israeli children
Israelis and Palestinians Killed Since September 29, 2000
Chart showing that 3 to 4 times more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis.
1,084 Israelis and 4,398 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Source)
Israelis and Palestinians Injured Since September 29, 2000
7,633 Israelis and 31,168 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (View Source)
Chart showing that Palestinians are injured at least four times more often than Israelis.
Daily U.S. Assistance to Israel and the Palestinians
Chart showing that the United States gives over 26 times more assistance to Israel than to Palestinian development organizations.
The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO’s. (View Source)
UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the Palestinians
Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none. (View Source)
Chart showing that Israel has been targeted by over 60 UN resolutions, while the Palestinians have been targeted by none.
Political Prisoners and Detainees
Chart showing that Israel is holding over 8000 Palestinians prisoner.
1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 9,599 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. (View Source)
Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000. (View Source)
Chart showing that 2202 Palestinian homes have been destroyed, compared to one Israeli home.
Israeli and Palestinian Unemployment Rates
Chart depicting the fact that the Palestinian unemployment is around 4 times the Israeli unemployment rate.
The Israeli unemployment rate is 9%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 40%. (View Source)
New Settlements Built (March 2001 - July 2003)
60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements. (View Source)
Chart showing that Israel has built at least 60 new Jewish-only settlements on Palestinians land.

The sources to all of that are in the above link.

I stress that I'm not about supporting Israel. I just don't think Americans should be supporting either side of this with their tax money or by fighting wars.

Pro Street · 01-19-2007, 10:05 AM

I point out mideastweb, and you give me "ifamericansknew.org"

I'll give you a gold coin, you then in return give me chocolate candy in gold foil.

nice.

MKULTRA · 01-19-2007, 01:44 PM

You haven't did anything but link to a website. I asked you what was wrong with the map. You haven't given me anything. And the website I linked you to is itself full of links. It tends to back it's claims up with outside links to what is many times credible sources. I typically look at it and make up my own mind what is true or not. Sometimes I agree with it and sometimes not.

But what I was asking you is to show me how the majority of the map I presented is wrong. That area is changing a lot so I do concede there are some minor errors but by and large, the map is correct. And all of the statistics I linked you to are also sourced.

So I'm listening if you can answer my question. Is the majority of the map wrong and if so then why? Link me to a page outlining this or something to support your claim and I'll listen. No, linking me to a website with nothing on the front page answering my question does not count.

Pro Street · 01-19-2007, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by MKULTRA

You haven't did anything but link to a website. I asked you what was wrong with the map. You haven't given me anything. And the website I linked you to is itself full of links. It tends to back it's claims up with outside links to what is many times credible sources. I typically look at it and make up my own mind what is true or not. Sometimes I agree with it and sometimes not.

But what I was asking you is to show me how the majority of the map I presented is wrong. That area is changing a lot so I do concede there are some minor errors but by and large, the map is correct. And all of the statistics I linked you to are also sourced.

So I'm listening if you can answer my question. Is the majority of the map wrong and if so then why? Link me to a page outlining this or something to support your claim and I'll listen. No, linking me to a website with nothing on the front page answering my question does not count.

I gave you plenty of reasons why the map was wrong.. nothing you can say can disagree with me. You can ADD "well they didn't say xxx either" but that just shows that the map was very wrong.

It shows that the map does not express the actuality and reasoning behind the territorial changes.

No, since you posted just the map with no comment on it, There's nothing you can even hope to debate since you made no point. The only thing is that the map shows is selected changes and is not up to date.

Now, if you feel like posting a commentary to go along with the map, we can move on.

Until then, I stand by the map being incorrect, and you have only agreed with me.

MKULTRA · 01-20-2007, 07:19 AM

What you've said is the map doesn't provide reasons, which doesn't make it wrong. In fact, that'd be virtually impossible to do on a map.

Then you said it was a few years old, which may be true, but doesn't make it 95% or more of that map false. In fact, the map doesn't show the land Israel recently took in building its latest wall.

You also claim it doesn't show the land Israel gave back. What land are you talking about specifically? Because I can list UN resolution after resolution showing gains in Israeli lands. Israel gained control over some more land in this latest conflict with Lebanon.

Pro Street · 01-20-2007, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by MKULTRA

What you've said is the map doesn't provide reasons, which doesn't make it wrong. In fact, that'd be virtually impossible to do on a map.

Then you said it was a few years old, which may be true, but doesn't make it 95% or more of that map false. In fact, the map doesn't show the land Israel recently took in building its latest wall.

You also claim it doesn't show the land Israel gave back. What land are you talking about specifically? Because I can list UN resolution after resolution showing gains in Israeli lands. Israel gained control over some more land in this latest conflict with Lebanon.

It's very easy to do with a map, easier that to skew statistics.

I've already said enough, I'm not going to waste more time arguing a map both you and I agreed was inaccurate.

MKULTRA · 01-21-2007, 06:56 AM

Well if it is so easy man then give me some examples. Like I said, I know the map doesn't account for Israel land gains on the West Bank and from this recent Lebanon conflict. What else is it not accounting for? If anything, more land on that map should be shown under Israeli control.

I'm saying it's not accurate because it should be showing more land belonging to Israel. It is a few years old. If you're saying it's not accurate because less land should belong to Israel then tell me why. Give me a specific reason why. What land specifically is it not including that was given back to the Palestinians? If you answer me that then I will listen and consider the information.