Senate votes to fund the fence - Page 8

Kytro · 08-07-2006, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

i think you've ignored absolutely everything i've said. a fence alone is not going to do a better job. a fence is part of the bigger solution, but necessary nonetheless.

it amuses me that you selectively read what i write.

I never said it wouldn't help, but that for cost vs effectiveness is a poor investment.

The biggest benefit is phycological

Kytro · 08-07-2006, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

i think it'll give the best results. and i don't think it'll slow the economy OR reduce the rate of globalization.

What basis do you have to believe that it will give the best results?

Motivation is key. The best solution would be to make it so that mexico was attractive enough for them to want to stay, since that s not a viable option, then next best is to make the US uncomfortable for them, the kick them out.

Concept · 08-07-2006, 10:40 PM

Who has been to mainland Mexico?

It is a very poor place. The living standards there are very much below attractive for anyone.

How would the United States be able to make Mexico seem so much more attractive? By make migration here illegally a bitch. The government and people of Mexico seem not to be able to advance on the potentials that Mexico has to offer; which really surprises me, as Mexico is an excellent area for trade and her natural resources are abundant.

A wall would be a statement more than anything.

ballz2wallz · 08-08-2006, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by Kytro

What basis do you have to believe that it will give the best results?

Motivation is key. The best solution would be to make it so that mexico was attractive enough for them to want to stay, since that s not a viable option, then next best is to make the US uncomfortable for them, the kick them out.

as i've said before, the only way to make the US uncomfortable for them is to make it worse than mexico, and that will NEVER happen. that's a foolish idea.

Kytro · 08-08-2006, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

as i've said before, the only way to make the US uncomfortable for them is to make it worse than mexico, and that will NEVER happen. that's a foolish idea.

Only worse for them, and I agree it won't ever happen. Political will is lacking.

The fence at best is really only a feel-good solution, espcially the way it will be implemented.

The cost or erecting a fence or system that works will be huge, and it won't happen either.

Nonphixion · 08-08-2006, 04:08 AM

By "works" do you mean "impenetrable"? Because that would be wholly impractical given the purpose -- given any fence there will always be a man with the will and drive to scale it and emerge on the other side.

Kytro · 08-08-2006, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by Nonphixion

By "works" do you mean "impenetrable"? Because that would be wholly impractical given the purpose -- given any fence there will always be a man with the will and drive to scale it and emerge on the other side.

I mean acts a deterrant to the majority

motivez · 08-08-2006, 03:45 PM

The problem is that unless the fence covers the whole border, it's not really a deterrent, simply another obstacle to overcome.

That can be done as easily as crossing elsewhere.

ballz2wallz · 08-08-2006, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

The problem is that unless the fence covers the whole border, it's not really a deterrent, simply another obstacle to overcome.

That can be done as easily as crossing elsewhere.

obstacle...the definition of obstacle is what?

that's all it needs to be.

Kytro · 08-08-2006, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

obstacle...the definition of obstacle is what?

that's all it needs to be.

I still question the value. It seems to be about people feeling like they are doing something instead of being helpless

Concept · 08-09-2006, 12:48 AM

The wall would really help border patrol agents do their job.

Every solution to this problem looks inevitably expensive.

Ardentfrost · 08-09-2006, 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by Concept

The wall would really help border patrol agents do their job.

Every solution to this problem looks inevitably expensive.

go reread the thread. A few of us have talked about inexpensive solutions

Concept · 08-09-2006, 01:18 AM

Whoa, so sorry dude.

Information got a bit lost throughout the 8 pages of debate.

The most inexpensive way I've seen, and correct me if I'm wrong, is deportation and tougher illegal-alien laws.

So we toughen up on social programs.. but I think the root of the problem is a number of employers who utilize illegal labor.
Is there a certain organization that makes sure you aren't employing illegals?

Ardentfrost · 08-09-2006, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by Concept

Whoa, so sorry dude.

Information got a bit lost throughout the 8 pages of debate.

The most inexpensive way I've seen, and correct me if I'm wrong, is deportation and tougher illegal-alien laws.

So we toughen up on social programs.. but I think the root of the problem is a number of employers who utilize illegal labor.
Is there a certain organization that makes sure you aren't employing illegals?

Why worry about employing "illegals" if we are in a time of allowing immigration? "Illegal" should only be a term used when we are forced to cut back immigration due to people coming into the country too fast. At that time, we institute a similar situation to what we have now to slow immigration (though, we'll never be able to stop it). An addition of a system in which we can TRACK them is important, however, in this ficticious system. This is so we know how fast people are immigrating, and employers should have to make sure their workers have papers (not that it would be hard to get them except in a time in which we slow/stop immigration).

These workers are obviously not nationalized... they still belong to their country and lack all rights given to citizens like voting of course, but also any socialized system such as welfare, social security, etc... though they should not be exempt from paying for these socialized programs if we're going to have them. However, if someone takes the time and puts forth the effort to become nationalized, they are then welcome to use all the socialized shit we have.

In this system, the cost is simply tracking of immigrants and the savings is a slacking of border patrol and whatever else policing systems we have in place until we have to slow/stop immigration... but at that time, our economy will be running at full capacity, so to speak, and the cost of tightening border patrol can even be taken out of the paychecks of current immigrants (also added incentive to go back to their country if we're in a time where we're having to stop immigration due to increased unemployment).

I'm not saying I have all the answers since I haven't necessarily thought of everything (I only recently came up with the idea), but the fact that it makes a lot better economical sense than building a stupid fucking fence is at least a step in the right direction. But I do think something that would help this system GREATLY would be a better tax system that people cannot skirt, cutting back on socialized programs, and tightening those that we keep... but for the time being, I think that something like I have suggested could still work with what we currently have.

Concept · 08-09-2006, 02:26 AM

Though it seems like a good idea.. how pragmatic do you think it is?

Wouldn't this constitute the tracking of millions?

Ardentfrost · 08-09-2006, 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by Concept

Though it seems like a good idea.. how pragmatic do you think it is?

Wouldn't this constitute the tracking of millions?

Perhaps... but is tracking them better or worse than trying to keep them out with a huge fucking fence that won't keep them all out? Furthermore, if we give out worker papers freely (during a time that we are accepting immigrants) why wouldn't they get them? Of course, adding that incentive "no working without correct papers" is good too

The papers could act like a passport, but I don't know if it could always be a passport since I'm sure some people who just want to cross the border to pick oranges might not have enough money for one... but we can issue them one and tax them more to pay for it. One of the things I like most about my pseudo-plan is that any cost of tracking/legimitizing/detouring immigrants could be paid off by immigrant labor.... that can't happen currently.

Concept · 08-09-2006, 02:38 AM

Well, I gotta give it to you..

You've got something going on there.

Ardentfrost · 08-09-2006, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by Concept

Well, I gotta give it to you..

You've got something going on there.

It's just an idea and I won't even claim the best... but it's better than a fence