More details on bush's health care plan... - Page 2

DosEquis · 01-25-2007, 11:36 AM

His plan sounds like government subsidized healthcare to me. It is using tax revenue to pay for healthcare basically. They are just handing the ball off, but if the govt. dropped back to pass this thread would be screaming socialism. Either way the govt is paying for it. This could also be reaching but this sounds like something the insurance company lobbyists would just drool over. Government subsidized health insurance..mmmm.

This is not going to fix anything. Why do we feel we need this in the first place? Healthcare costs right? We need to do something about our drug prices, useless law suits, ridiculous malpractice insurance costs, etc. Those are the real problems. Instead we give out tax cuts so we can afford to over pay and funnel corporate welfare to insurance and drug companies. What happens in 3-5 years when prices keep going up? Do we just keep increasing the tax cut? We need to address the real problem.

Thorgrim · 01-25-2007, 11:40 AM

Indeed, a Treasury Department analysis shows that Bush’s plan will cover only 5 million of the nation’s 47 million uninsured, although White House officials said it would actually cover more.

RealClearPolitics - Articles - Bush, Democrats Play 'Old Politics.' Voters Want 'New'
-Fox News conservative

That's why its DOA, its a half ass system that costs tons of money to screw over the vast majority of uninsured

6SpeedTA95 · 01-25-2007, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

That's why its DOA, its a half ass system that costs tons of money to screw over the vast majority of uninsured

to screw them over?

Thorgrim · 01-25-2007, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

to screw them over?

"Your country is going more in debt, this time for health insurance, and you're still not covered ha-ha!"

6SpeedTA95 · 01-25-2007, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

"Your country is going more in debt, this time for health insurance, and you're still not covered ha-ha!"

riiiiight

DosEquis · 01-25-2007, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

to screw them over?

As tbone pointed out in a different thread some companies will see this as an opportunity to no longer offer coverage. They will say "hey you are getting a tax break to pay for it". I would definitely put that in the classification of screwing people over.

6SpeedTA95 · 01-25-2007, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

As tbone pointed out in a different thread some companies will see this as an opportunity to no longer offer coverage. They will say "hey you are getting a tax break to pay for it". I would definitely put that in the classification of screwing people over.

I doubt it, because companies are not required to offer benefits to begin with. We're not entitled to discounted healthcare through our companies, its a BENEFIT to attract workers.

tbone · 01-25-2007, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

I doubt it, because companies are not required to offer benefits to begin with. We're not entitled to discounted healthcare through our companies, its a BENEFIT to attract workers.

It is a benefit to attract workers and most companies added this decades ago when it was affordable. In the past decade many companies have struggled with how to continue paying for the benefit, but don't want to drop it for fear their competitors will get the better employees. This is like a free pass to give employers the excuse to no longer offer health insurance.

Hey, the government is giving you huge tax incentives to find your own health insurance so we are going to add $8,000 to your salary (or whatever they would pay annually for healthcare per employee) and you go find what's best for you. It sounds really great until it's 5 years from now and the basic problems making the costs escalate over 20% per year have not been fixed and we are up to 60 million Americans without health insurance as that $8,000 is now only half of what health insurance actually costs. The employer, however, is out of the health care business and no longer has to worry each year how to cover the increasing costs while still giving some semblance of a salary increase to keep workers happy.

This plan truly is the end of employer sponsored healthcare in the US. The plan does not address the base problems and is simply a VERY short term solution to offer a band aid and possibly boost some opinion polls.

(Worst plan ever!)

Diesel66 · 01-25-2007, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

His plan sounds like government subsidized healthcare to me. It is using tax revenue to pay for healthcare basically.

Explain how less taxes paid somehow equals the govt paying for it ?

Originally Posted by DosEquis

As tbone pointed out in a different thread some companies will see this as an opportunity to no longer offer coverage. They will say "hey you are getting a tax break to pay for it". I would definitely put that in the classification of screwing people over.

Except that happens already, you just dont see it.

RMNIXON · 01-25-2007, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

His plan sounds like government subsidized healthcare to me. It is using tax revenue to pay for healthcare basically. They are just handing the ball off, but if the govt. dropped back to pass this thread would be screaming socialism. Either way the govt is paying for it. This could also be reaching but this sounds like something the insurance company lobbyists would just drool over. Government subsidized health insurance..mmmm.

How is it the governments money? Shouldn't I have a choice to get my own healthcare or be forced to pay through taxation into a government plan? (The Obama Plan?) We already pay taxes for government sponsored healthcare even if we never use it. At the very least both options should be on the table, not one or the other. Same for Social Security. If I want to make a private investment of part of it why should it be your business as long as I never claim anymore than what I have earned in the government held portion!

6SpeedTA95 · 01-25-2007, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by tbone

It is a benefit to attract workers and most companies added this decades ago when it was affordable. In the past decade many companies have struggled with how to continue paying for the benefit, but don't want to drop it for fear their competitors will get the better employees. This is like a free pass to give employers the excuse to no longer offer health insurance.

Hey, the government is giving you huge tax incentives to find your own health insurance so we are going to add $8,000 to your salary (or whatever they would pay annually for healthcare per employee) and you go find what's best for you. It sounds really great until it's 5 years from now and the basic problems making the costs escalate over 20% per year have not been fixed and we are up to 60 million Americans without health insurance as that $8,000 is now only half of what health insurance actually costs. The employer, however, is out of the health care business and no longer has to worry each year how to cover the increasing costs while still giving some semblance of a salary increase to keep workers happy.

This plan truly is the end of employer sponsored healthcare in the US. The plan does not address the base problems and is simply a VERY short term solution to offer a band aid and possibly boost some opinion polls.

(Worst plan ever!)

One of the biggest problems with the health system now is the consumers disconnect from the industry that problem goes away with this new system, solving one of the biggest problems in US healthcare.

DosEquis · 01-25-2007, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by tbone

It is a benefit to attract workers and most companies added this decades ago when it was affordable. In the past decade many companies have struggled with how to continue paying for the benefit, but don't want to drop it for fear their competitors will get the better employees. This is like a free pass to give employers the excuse to no longer offer health insurance.

Hey, the government is giving you huge tax incentives to find your own health insurance so we are going to add $8,000 to your salary (or whatever they would pay annually for healthcare per employee) and you go find what's best for you. It sounds really great until it's 5 years from now and the basic problems making the costs escalate over 20% per year have not been fixed and we are up to 60 million Americans without health insurance as that $8,000 is now only half of what health insurance actually costs. The employer, however, is out of the health care business and no longer has to worry each year how to cover the increasing costs while still giving some semblance of a salary increase to keep workers happy.

This plan truly is the end of employer sponsored healthcare in the US. The plan does not address the base problems and is simply a VERY short term solution to offer a band aid and possibly boost some opinion polls.

(Worst plan ever!)

You are even giving them the benefit of the doubt in that they would offer better salary since they dont have that extra health care cost. My company pays 4500 a year in health insurance for me. If they stopped I highly doubt they would give me a 4500 raise. I am thinking i would get 1000 at the most.

6SpeedTA95 · 01-25-2007, 06:53 PM

Oh yeah and there's no such thing as "government's money"

DosEquis · 01-25-2007, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

How is it the governments money? Shouldn't I have a choice to get my own healthcare or be forced to pay through taxation into a government plan? (The Obama Plan?) We already pay taxes for government sponsored healthcare even if we never use it. At the very least both options should be on the table, not one or the other. Same for Social Security. If I want to make a private investment of part of it why should it be your business as long as I never claim anymore than what I have earned in the government held portion!

I am for choosing your own plan. I dont like the idea of social medicine for everybody or the obama/hilary plan. However, this tax cut for insurance reeks of the insurance lobby lining their pockets with more money. This tax cut means less revenue for the government, thus they are indirectly paying for health insurance through a decrease in revenue.

This also creates an out for employers who don't want to offer health coverage. Some will say "use your tax cut and buy it".

DosEquis · 01-25-2007, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Explain how less taxes paid somehow equals the govt paying for it ?

Except that happens already, you just dont see it.

When you have a tax deduction for health insurance the government is indirectly paying for it in that they have less revenue. They are trying to make it more affordable by taking in less money, instead of fixing the problem..problem being cost in the first place.

Diesel66 · 01-25-2007, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

When you have a tax deduction for health insurance the government is indirectly paying for it in that they have less revenue.

See that is your problem. You think the govt has the right to take all our money.

If there is a deduction, it it OUR money.

DosEquis · 01-25-2007, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Diesel66

See that is your problem. You think the govt has the right to take all our money.

If there is a deduction, it it OUR money.

I dont think they should take ALL our money and yes they do have a right to tax us for living here.

The deduction is for use for healthcare. Its less government revenue that is used to pay insurance companies. It does NOT address the healthcare cost problem.

6SpeedTA95 · 01-26-2007, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

I dont think they should take ALL our money and yes they do have a right to tax us for living here.

The deduction is for use for healthcare. Its less government revenue that is used to pay insurance companies. It does NOT address the healthcare cost problem.

It goes a long way towards addressing the problem, see my post from earlier.

Pro Street · 01-26-2007, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Yes thats correct, its a 15,000 dollar deduction for families.

If you already dont pay taxes of course there wont be a tax savings that wouldn't make any sense. How can you save money on something you're already paying zero on?

because without employers paying for health care as a benefit, it will cost MORE. much, much more.

again, no thanks.

This takes away the power that employers and corporations have in regards to insurance rates, since individuals will be much less likely to be able to negotiate cheaper prices.

it's a fucking win-win for the insurance companies, and now I csee it as it is. Typical fucking catering to the rich.