More details on bush's health care plan...

[tbone]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Ummm dude its the rich and a few middle class with fantastically good insurance that will actually see their taxes go up. How is that "helping" the rich?

See below for how it helps the rich.

President Bush likes to say that his health-care proposal would "level the playing field" between people who get health coverage through their job and those who buy it on their own.

But experts said yesterday that it would tilt that field toward a kind of health insurance that Bush has long favored -- a high-deductible plan paired with a special tax-exempt health savings account, or HSA.

"I think it would be a big push for HSAs," said Mark B. McClellan, a health economist and former top health-policy adviser to Bush.

While McClellan thinks that would be a good thing, other experts said it would benefit the wealthy and undercut Bush's goal of bringing fairness to the private health insurance system.

In contrast with traditional health plans that typically charge $20 co-payments for visits to the doctor, high-deductible plans require consumers to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars out of pocket for medications, physicians' services and hospital care before most insurance coverage kicks in. The deductibles are steep, at least $2,200 for family coverage, compared with about $220 in a traditional plan. But the special savings accounts enable people to accumulate a tax-free pool of their own money to pay the deductibles and other uncovered health bills, rolling over any unused funds to the following year. And premiums for high-deductible plans tend to be lower.

......

Len Burman, director of the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, said that, in leveling the field, the White House should also seek to scrap the HSA tax break, whose purpose is to counter the tax code's current bias toward comprehensive and expensive employer-provided coverage. Under Bush's plan, it would be the only extra tax break for health insurance -- one that would most benefit wealthy people, who can best afford the financial risk of a high-deductible plan and to sock away a lot of money in an HSA.

Health Plan's Impact Debated - washingtonpost.com

[JaJae]

So it helps the rich because Bush has an underburning desire to get rid of low cost co-pays? That doesn't seem to make sense to me.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by tbone

See below for how it helps the rich.



Health Plan's Impact Debated - washingtonpost.com

how does that help the rich?

If you dont have a 300/mo insurance premium and instead carry major med for 100/mo thats 2400 bucks a year that you can spend on doctors visits and medications. Again the plan needs work but its not the complete sack of crap that the media is making it out to be.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by JaJae

So it helps the rich because Bush has an underburning desire to get rid of low cost co-pays? That doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Maybe you didn't see this part?

In contrast with traditional health plans that typically charge $20 co-payments for visits to the doctor, high-deductible plans require consumers to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars out of pocket for medications, physicians' services and hospital care before most insurance coverage kicks in. The deductibles are steep, at least $2,200 for family coverage, compared with about $220 in a traditional plan

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by tbone

Maybe you didn't see this part?

I did see that part about the speculation that Bush wasn't to multiply deductibles. I just find it hard to believe.

[6SpeedTA95]

yearly deductibles are higher but thats offset by the cheaper premiums...

[tbone]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

yearly deductibles are higher but thats offset by the cheaper premiums...

Generally speaking people can afford small monthly payments in lower incomes, it's the sudden high expenses that are bad. IE easier to make $200 payments 12 times per year then to pay $2,400 at one time.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by tbone

Generally speaking people can afford small monthly payments in lower incomes, it's the sudden high expenses that are bad. IE easier to make $200 payments 12 times per year then to pay $2,400 at one time.

thats why a person has to be responsible and stick that money in an HSA/MSA throughout the year. You can't fix everyone else's problems and trying is ridiculous. If people dont wanna properly manage their money then sorry I have no sympathy for that. Stick the extra 200 you were spending on premiums and SAVE IT!

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

If people dont wanna properly manage their money then sorry I have no sympathy for that. Stick the extra 200 you were spending on premiums and SAVE IT!

How many people do you honestly think are capable of that level of self control, especially those who don't have much money. Most people stay poor because they have poor money management skills, it is like expecting a civilian to fly a plane if the pilot dies and claiming if they really wanted to be safe they would have learned how to fly

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Kytro

How many people do you honestly think are capable of that level of self control, especially those who don't have much money. Most people stay poor because they have poor money management skills, it is like expecting a civilian to fly a plane if the pilot dies and claiming if they really wanted to be safe they would have learned how to fly

If they're already spending that on a premium and no longer have to then its not my problem if they screw up their finances.

Now for the lower middle class with low premiums as it is and those without insurance this plan clearly needs some work. But if someone lacks self control when it comes to their spending habbits, thats not my problem, shouldn't be anyone else's except that persons. Even so most hospitals nad doctors allow monthly payments if need be so you could pay something like that out in the real world.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

If they're already spending that on a premium and no longer have to then its not my problem if they screw up their finances.

It being your problem or not is a different argument. My point was the concept of "I can so they can" is flawed.

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Now for the lower middle class with low premiums as it is and those without insurance this plan clearly needs some work. But if someone lacks self control when it comes to their spending habbits, thats not my problem, shouldn't be anyone else's except that persons. Even so most hospitals nad doctors allow monthly payments if need be so you could pay something like that out in the real world.

This is one of those things that society argues over constantly. I mean following the "not my problem if" to it's logical conclusion there would be no government at all. AS soon as you start making allowances, there can be arguments as to why a particular use of money is a good idea.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Kytro

It being your problem or not is a different argument. My point was the concept of "I can so they can" is flawed.



This is one of those things that society argues over constantly. I mean following the "not my problem if" to it's logical conclusion there would be no government at all. AS soon as you start making allowances, there can be arguments as to why a particular use of money is a good idea.

It has no logical conclusion to no government. It is NOT my problem if people can not manage their own finances. Furthermore if they get a cut in premium costs and refuse to save that money and they know they have a higher deductible please tell me how thats the rest of societies problem?

There's a difference between funding vital infrastructure (aka roads) and funding the daily parts of everyone's life like healthcare.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

It has no logical conclusion to no government. It is NOT my problem if people can not manage their own finances. Furthermore if they get a cut in premium costs and refuse to save that money and they know they have a higher deductible please tell me how thats the rest of societies problem?

There's a difference between funding vital infrastructure (aka roads) and funding the daily parts of everyone's life like healthcare.

Well, techincally it is YOUR problem and everyone else's as well if you think it through to it's logical conclusion. If a person does not manage to put the money into an account and then runs into medical issues and can't pay, who's problem do you think that is? Do they declare bankruptcy? YOUR problem. Does the healthcare provider write off the expense and let it go? YOUR problem! Where do you think they get the money for that? Tax dollars or increased rates, all affecting YOU. It's the circle off life, whether you agree or not, we are responsible for the stupid and poor people either directly or indirectly.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

It has no logical conclusion to no government. It is NOT my problem if people can not manage their own finances. Furthermore if they get a cut in premium costs and refuse to save that money and they know they have a higher deductible please tell me how thats the rest of societies problem?

There's a difference between funding vital infrastructure (aka roads) and funding the daily parts of everyone's life like healthcare.

Some people see health care as vital as one can easily argue that a person's health is more important than roads.

Why should non-road users pay anything for roads?
Why should those who never need police help help fund the police?

Why shouldn't it be "user pays" for all services?

Society has the power to determine what is important and there is a significant number of people who believe healthcare is.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Kytro

Some people see health care as vital as one can easily argue that a person's health is more important than roads.

Why should non-road users pay anything for roads?

In general, non-road users DONT pay for our roads.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

In general, non-road users DONT pay for our roads.

As long as they pay taxes they do.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by tbone

As long as they pay taxes they do.

Large majority of the highway funds come from users paying fuel tax.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Large majority of the highway funds come from users paying fuel tax.

Still it's not all - and roads are just one example. What about the police?

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Kytro

Still it's not all - and roads are just one example. What about the police?

Everyone that lives in the community is protected by the police. Therefore, everyone pays.


Think of it as insurance if that makes it easier. Even if you you didnt file a claim, you still used the service.