The Statue of Liberty is Semiramis: Queen of Babylon

[JSmythe]

Don't worry, I didn't take it as one.

[avsp]

Originally Posted by MKULTRA

LMAO it is not doublethink pointing out the Nazis and the Aztecs both used the swastika and it wasn't coincidence. There was a unified force behind it. If we're going to start throwing that word around then let's try to use it correctly. The Swastika was Jewish before Hitler ever used it. Likewise, it was used by Celts before Christians ever used it. Most of these religions and movements take these symbols from somewhere else. To an extent that is what it is. But also, the Swastika is a symbol of sun worship and a symbol representing the universe. So you could also see how any society with knowledge of astronomy would come up with such a symbol. Knowledge? Yes. Coincidence? No.

My 'doublethink' comment was directed at the seemingly comtradictary notions that symbols might mean different things to different people but that the use of the swastika by both Aztecs & Nazis wasnt a coincidence. Sorry for any confusion. Perhaps its a question of how we define coincidence?

Are you claiming that its always the case that the swastika is a sun symbol?
Are you claiming that the Aztecs copied the swastika from somewhere else?

In both cases I assume your answer will be 'No' but I wish to make certain

|As for ,"So you could also see how any society with knowledge of astronomy would come up with such a symbol", If its largely derivate as you appear to suggest then, I'd say 'possibly'. If its the meaning is somehow inherent to the symbol then I'd say 'yes'.
But I dont think the meaning is inherent, (in this example, I could be wrong & I'm willing to be persuaded).
I'd re-word the sentance to "So you could also see how any society with knowledge of astronomy living under the sun would could come up with such a symbol." I'm in 2 minds about deleteing the word 'such'

And also, Marilyn Monroe as well as artists like Madonna model themselves after a lot of these ancient goddesses. That is one reason they were so successful. Madonna frequently modeled herself after Monroe but also after the virgin Mary, that was derived from earlier goddesses.

To what extent does such iconography work purely based upon some kind of archtype innate to the symbol itself as opposed to arising from the shared knowedge of its history?

I feel that you are claiming that both play a role. A view with which I agree.

However you also claim that the use of classical imagery & mason symbols proves the existance of a single unified but multi-faceted centuries old pagan secret conspiratorial society. The case for this is very weak IMO

Victor was a common Roman name, ..., we are all using letters that as symbols date back eons to pre-Roman times. None of this indicates that we are part of some effort to re-establish the Roman empire.

Most idealogies have had 'global' ambitions. This isnt a coincidence, its in the nature of power.
Very many constructs are 'derivative' using the ideas, symbols & experiences of other ones. This isnt a coincidence. Its in the nature of 'culture'.
Similarly many constructs seeks to encourage the perception that they are 'new', 'original' & a 'clean start' untainted by the 'errors' & 'corruption' of previous times. I cant think of one that actually didnt owe something to prior cultures. Indeed that why they feel the need to 'separate' themselves

It may be the case that there exists a 'universal' set of symbols, association etc inherent to humans, ..., but its use isnt compulsory & searching for it is hard coz of the non-discrete nature of civilisation.

OTOH there is an awful lot of masonic imagery on the artifacts of the US state, as you point out.
I've read differing versions of the story of how the Great Seal was derived/found/adopted. Whats your favoured version?

BTW , ..., you didnt define 'pagan' nor answer my unequal cross questions

[MKULTRA]

I'm not claiming that the symbols are the only thing that prove the Masons are a very old, very powerful society. Please stop looking at all of my evidence, picking one single piece out, and then focusing on that as if it is all that exists. I don't understand how someone could write out several well thought paragraphs and then try so hard to avoid all common sense in those same paragraphs. If you want to take someone's collective case, about anything, then look at it collectively.

If you take a look at the symbols, which are everywhere, then the powerful members, then the massive lodges, and the other interlocking esoteric societies, then you'll get an idea of how big this is. If you look at how they merged with the most powerful bankers in the world and then look at lodges named after these bankers then you'll get an idea of how powerful it is. Then you can take a look at their own open-stated goals. And it's not like these symbols you mention are laying on the street. They are all over massive structures and UN symbols, as well as other organizations like the TC/CFR that use the symbols and have many interlocking members. I don't make any claims that Freemasonry itself is the single organization that runs the world but it is certainly one of them and it operates within other groups, whose goals are the same, whose symbols are the same, whose members are the same. I'm not going to look at that and chalk it all up to coincidence, although I'm sure some of you will find a way to do just that.

How the Seal got on the dollar is obvious. It's not a secret. It was put there by a Freemason and it was designed by a Freemason. It's full of Gematria and symbolism.

And I'm agreeing that most societies have global ambitions. That is all I'm pointing out. It's not something uncommon.But not all groups have the power or the members that Freemasonry does, whose lodge numbers correspond with other groups like Skull and Bones, an extremely powerful(to say the least) esoteric group.


The point about Marilyn or Madonna is also easy to understand and right in front of your face. Look at the name 'Madonna' But as I said, it's not just the name. She's obvious about it in her videos and lyrics. A lot of these artists draw from prior works. They know about these things or their handlers know about these things.

Anyways, great posting.

[MKULTRA]

Also, the "M" on the coffin does not stand for Mary. It is a popular symbol for an esoteric society that operates within the highest levels of the Vatican.

[7960]

Originally Posted by MKULTRA

Also, the "M" on the coffin does not stand for Mary. It is a popular symbol for an esoteric society that operates within the highest levels of the Vatican.

Throughout the open-air service the Pope's wooden coffin, adorned with a cross and the letter 'M' for Mary, lay in front of an altar on the basilica's stone steps.

BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Pope buried in St Peter's crypt


Applause erupted as John Paul's coffin -- topped with a cross and an "M" for Mary -- was brought out into the windy square from St. Peter's Basilica.

CNN.com - Pope John Paul II buried in Vatican crypt - Apr 8, 2005


The casket was brought out in front of the altar and sat on a carpet. It had a cross and the letter M on it for Mary.

Funeral for Pope John Paul II

But I enjoyed your references to this "esoteric organization"......... when are you going to put up or shut up?

[MKULTRA]

Right, but it does not stand for Mary, or the Mary that most people envision and worship anyways.

The twisted cross as well as the "M" inside of it are popular symbols of Opus Dei, which is an esoteric organization within the Vatican.

The 'M' is also a declaration of "mariolatry" which is worship of the virgin Mary, but goes beyond the typical Catholic worship or view of Mary. They believe Mary had many children and that many of their descendants are still alive today. They also believe these people are royal by birthright, or superior to the common man. People who practice matriolary also believe Mary was the 'Queen of Heaven' which is the title given to Semiramis, the goddess which the Catholic queen is based on.

The Opus Dei and the "M" also tie into the Pope's Fatima Prophesies.

It's funny you're asking me when I'm going to shut up after you've proven yourself wrong on virtually everything you've said in this thread. You're the one that sat there claiming Bill Clinton was not a Mason, then sourcing to the page proving he was a Mason. Likewise, you did the same with Reagan and claimed that only 8 former presidents were Masons. When are you going to shut up? The "M" under the disfigured cross is a symbol common to Opus Dei. It is not worship of the traditional Virgin Mary.

[7960]

Originally Posted by MKULTRA

Right, but it does not stand for Mary, or the Mary that most people envision and worship anyways.

The twisted cross as well as the "M" inside of it are popular symbols of Opus Dei, which is an esoteric organization within the Vatican.

The 'M' is also a declaration of "mariolatry" which is worship of the virgin Mary, but goes beyond the typical Catholic worship or view of Mary. They believe Mary had many children and that many of their descendants are still alive today. They also believe these people are royal by birthright, or superior to the common man. People who practice matriolary also believe Mary was the 'Queen of Heaven' which is the title given to Semiramis, the goddess which the Catholic queen is based on.

So the pope believes The Da Vinci Code?

It's funny you're asking me when I'm going to shut up after you've proven yourself wrong on virtually everything you've said in this thread. You're the one that sat there claiming Bill Clinton was not a Mason, then sourcing to the page proving he was a Mason.

He was not. He was in a youth group sponsored by the masons.

youth group != mason

Likewise, you did the same with Reagan and claimed that only 8 former presidents were Masons.

I didn't say 8 were, *HE* said 8 were and I counted the names in the list he provided and replied back "that's significant?"

And I showed you reagan was an HONORARY shriner and NOT a mason. My apologies that you can't see the difference between HONORARY MEMBER and REAL MEMBER.

When are you going to shut up? The "M" under the disfigured cross is a symbol common to Opus Dei. It is not worship of the traditional Virgin Mary.

Even so you believe the pope believes jesus and mary were married and she had kids and Audrey Tautou is their 21st century decendent, it STILL comes down to "M was for Mary."

[MKULTRA]

The Order of DeMolay is not just a youth group. It is an order. It is a branch of Freemasonry. as they admitted very plainly in the link you provided. Yet, you can't seem to come to grip with the facts here and seem to have a short term memory problem, especially when recalling what you've posted, even though it's still right there in front of you.

And the Da vinci Code is fact mixed with fiction, much like your posts. Opus Dei has been around long before that book was written or its author was even born.

And Ronald, as I pointed out. was also a member of Bohemain Grove, hardly an 'honorary' thing.

But this is my last post to you. You are hopelessly lost and I'm getting tired of playing the part of broken record. It's pointless discussing anything with you.

[lew]

Originally Posted by 7960

He was interviewed, big deal.

So then EVERY president is a mason? Because they all perform that same "ritual."

He was during his presidency? His face on a magazine doesn't mean dick. Show me where clinton admits to being a mason.

FAMOUS FREEMASONS


There's a list of freemasons.

[7960]

Originally Posted by lew

FAMOUS FREEMASONS


There's a list of freemasons.

Thanks for backing my claim that clinton is NOT a freemason (or wasn't during his presidency, anyway...I don't know if he's joined since).

And

Ronald Reagan and George Bush were ... Masonic Presidents of the U.S.A.

All this evidence will be fully documented in my "Masonic Conspiracy" page. (when completed)

I can't wait to see it documented with something other than "they performed masonic rituals!!! "

Wouldn't it be nice if these things were mentioned in their biographies? Oh, but wait, our local conspiracy theorist says "And you also need to understand that not all of them are open about this." So of course they *are* in these organizations even though we just don't know they are

[lew]

Originally Posted by 7960

Thanks for backing my claim that clinton is NOT a freemason (or wasn't during his presidency, anyway...I don't know if he's joined since).

AndI can't wait to see it documented with something other than "they performed masonic rituals!!! "

Wouldn't it be nice if these things were mentioned in their biographies? Oh, but wait, our local conspiracy theorist says "And you also need to understand that not all of them are open about this." So of course they *are* in these organizations even though we just don't know they are

But in all seriousness, part of being in a secret society is about keeping it a secret, eh?

[7960]

Originally Posted by lew

But in all seriousness, part of being in a secret society is about keeping it a secret, eh?

It's not a secret society, it's a society with secrets. And it wouldn't be secret if clinton or reagan or either bush was really a member.

[lew]

Originally Posted by 7960

It's not a secret society, it's a society with secrets. And it wouldn't be secret if clinton or reagan or either bush was really a member.

Read the wiki entry on Freemasonry, I see.

[MKULTRA]

Just because something is public doesn't mean it's not esoteric. We all know about some Freemasons, but their lists are not public. Those that wish to disclose this fact do and those that do not don't. Likewise, the secrets of the upper echelon are only revealed with rank. The 'porch masons' or guys at the lower level have no idea what the guys at the upper level are up to. As I've said, look in your phone book, make a call, and attend one of their meetings. I guarantee you will see a who is who of your city government there. And there are public meetings and there are meetings that are not public. But the only reason a Masonic Compass and Set Square is going to be on something is to mark it as a lodge or something made by a Mason, which is a symbol of Freemasonry.

A lot of esoteric societies, like Bohemian Grove, release yearbooks. That is how we know some of their membership. Also, you have presidents like George Bush 1, that keep stuff from Skull and Bones in their presidential library and other places. The information is there if you look for it. This idea is not acceptable to commoners because they were not raised in it and they do not understand how different their world is from that of someone who is a financial/political elite in this country. It is two completely different lives.

[7960]

Originally Posted by lew

Read the wiki entry on Freemasonry, I see.

Actually this weekend there was an interview on NPR...I forgot which program but they were interviewing someone who is "higher up" in freemasonry. That was one of the things he said that stuck in my head.

[7960]

Originally Posted by MKULTRA

Just because something is public doesn't mean it's not esoteric. We all know about some Freemasons, but their lists are not public. Those that wish to disclose this fact do and those that do not don't.

Ok, so we're right back where we started................ with you saying clinton and reagan and both bushes are (were) masons but they never told anyone. Classic conspiracy shit right there, "He's in the group but he just can't tell anyone so nobody knows...but I know so just trust me."

classic.

[djmosley01]

If this story isn't true why is it included in documentary's I have seen on the statue of liberty? What is the link you mentioned.

[7960]

Originally Posted by djmosley01

If this story isn't true why is it included in documentary's I have seen on the statue of liberty? What is the link you mentioned.

to answer your question........because the documentaries you've seen lie?