Germany Seeks to Arrest 13 CIA Agents

[David Octavius]

Germany seeks arrest of 13 'CIA agents'

"German prosecutors on Wednesday issued arrest warrants for 13 suspected Central Intelligence Agency agents in connection with the alleged kidnapping of a German citizen in a forced renditions case that diplomats said could further strain relations between Washington and Berlin"

Later in the Article:


"Forced renditions by the CIA – the capture and removal to secret locations of alleged terror suspects – have caused a political outcry in Europe, with reports of hundreds of secret flights and dozens of abductions fuelling resentment of US anti-terror tactics."

Thoughts?

[archangel003]

They're not Americans, so they don't have rights, remember?

Stop giving aid and comfort to our enemy.

[JSmythe]

Those "CIA operatives" will never see a German courtroom, so it really doesn't matter.

[PetriW]

Well, the CIA operatives in question can't visit europe anymore. (Yes, I know most here probably don't consider that a loss, just like I wouldn't consider it being a loss not being able to travel to the USA.)

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by JSmythe

Those "CIA operatives" will never see a German courtroom, so it really doesn't matter.

In the Cold War days (East Germany) we would just detain three of their people if they had anyone in custody. Then both sides would expel equal numbers.

[kinggovernor]

I seek to tell them to hold their breath until they show up to turn themselves in

[PetriW]

So just a question... How would you guys feel if you wanted 13 french intelligence officers arrested for having kidnapped and severely tortured an innocent American citizen then dumped him in Turkmenistan... and France refused to extradite them?

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by PetriW

So just a question... How would you guys feel if you wanted 13 french intelligence officers arrested for having kidnapped and severely tortured an innocent American citizen then dumped him in Turkmenistan... and France refused to extradite them?

of course I would feel different

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by PetriW

So just a question... How would you guys feel if you wanted 13 french intelligence officers arrested for having kidnapped and severely tortured an innocent American citizen then dumped him in Turkmenistan... and France refused to extradite them?

Where do you find that these people were innocent?

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

Where do you find that these people were innocent?

Not convicted by a court of law = innocent

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

of course I would feel different

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

[motivez]

I'm kind of conflicted on this. I think those people were just following orders, but they had to have known what they were doing was illegal and morally wrong.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with them facing charges, but the problem is that it goes up much higher in the chain of command. Bush really should be impeached for all of the bullshit he's done.

[JSmythe]

Originally Posted by motivez

I'm kind of conflicted on this. I think those people were just following orders, but they had to have known what they were doing was illegal and morally wrong.

I don't know about you but I don't want my CIA agents questioning themselves on the way to kidnap someone they think is a terrorist. I want them to kick the shit out of that bastard and get him on a plane all bad ass style.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by JSmythe

I don't know about you but I don't want my CIA agents questioning themselves on the way to kidnap someone they think is a terrorist. I want them to kick the shit out of that bastard and get him on a plane all bad ass style.

That worked for despots for thousands of years. Why change now, right?

[JSmythe]

Originally Posted by Phantom

That worked for despots for thousands of years. Why change now, right?

As long as they aren't operating in America, yup.

Intelligence services need to be bad ass and clandestine and all those other adjectives we would attribute to splinter cell, including lethal.

[Diamond Cross]

So who here thinks America can just vio0late any international law they wish, that international law doe snot apply to America in any way shape or form, and that all other counjtries must adhere to America's laws?

Which to me, is bullshit.

Perhaps America has become a rogue nation after all:

America: Rogue Nation

The American Government constantly says one thing and does another. It imposes standards on the rest of the world which it refuses to accept itself. It has consistently shown a disregard for international law and a contempt for human rights.

The Americans claim to be the fount of goodness but they refuse to do anything to help poor countries - indeed, over the last couple of decades they have introduced policies which have directly led to the deaths of millions of innocent people. America's idea of diplomacy is to carpet bomb countries which upset America.

The Americans deny basic human rights to whole countries and then arrogantly claim that they know best. They insist that price stability within America is more important than the future of the planet; they continue to destroy our environment (as well as their own) and to wage war against innocents all around the world.

Virtually every day there are reports of American hypocrisy. The American president claims that his country leads the world in justice and yet his is the one of the few countries which routinely executes children. American presidents wage war to distract attention from their sexual peccadilloes. They insist that developing countries have properly supervised elections and yet they themselves conduct a presidential election which is decided when the so-called Supreme Court arbitrarily decides not to recount votes which would almost certainly have changed the result of the election.

A headline in an American newspaper ran: 'All Nations on Earth Sign Global Warming Agreement. USA Refuses.' And still they wonder why everyone loathes and despises them.

Americans know little or nothing about other countries. Even their leading politicians have no idea where other countries are or who leads them. The Americans expect the rest of the world to worship their flag, but they seem unable to understand that respect has to be earned and cannot simply be demanded. The Americans believe that their definitions are the only ones that count; they believe that if they say that someone is a terrorist then the rest of the world must regard him as a terrorist. The Americans fund terrorists in Ireland but think that the English are being unreasonable if they complain. Within days of the September 11th attack, the American Government decided to continue supporting Irish terroists who were bombing innocent English targets.

The Americans believe that the only form of justice that matters is American justice - even though to the rest of the world American justice doesn't look, sound or smell much like justice at all.

The Americans have a commercial view of human rights. They change their views according to the combatants. The Americans regard China as an important trading partner so they put up with human rights violations there. The Americans need Saudi oil so they turn a blind eye to human rights violations in that country too. But they will carpet bomb Afghanistan and Iraq to force regime changes in those countries.

The Americans claim to respect the freedom of the press and the individual's freedom of speech but they will close down websites which are critical of America. When Americans closed down my website, the American FBI refused to cooperate with the British police to arrest the criminal involved. But when a British citizen interfered with American websites the Americans insisted that the British authorities deal with him.

In February 2003, at the same time that they were begging for British support for their latest war on Iraq, the Americans told the South Africans to arrest an innocent British pensioner but then left him in prison for ten days before even bothering to go and interview him.

There is, in American hearts and minds, one rule for Americans and one rule for the rest of the world. The Americans are widely loathed. And the loathing will get worse, much worse, before it gets better.

Americans claim to offer freedom on religious matters but insist that the world convert to Christianity - preferably of the right variety. The Americans regard themselves as missionaries - chosen by God to lead the world. And still they wonder why the world dislikes them.

To Americans, history started just after they stole their nation from the natives. There is no equality of opportunity in the USA but they pretend there is. The American revolution started with the battle-cry 'No taxation without representation'. But the Americans now tax the world - and refuse to allow any representation.

The Americans have handed power to the lobbyists and the public relations specialists. He who has the biggest bank balance has the most power. That is the American version of freedom. Frankly, it stinks.

It is hardly surprising that around the world people distrust America and Americans. It is hardly surprising that very few non-Americans have much confidence or faith in America.

The Americans steal, corrupt and pollute without a thought for the rest of the world. They are contemptuous and condescending, greedy and uncaring. They refuse to accept international laws on how to deal with prisoners of war. They demand immunity from the war crimes court for their own soldiers. They are by far the world's biggest polluter but they refuse to ratify the Kyoto Treaty because it may damage their own internal economy. They steal and patent seeds and plants and then sell those seeds and plants back to starving people in developing countries. They foist genetically engineered products on a world which doesn't want them. They claim to worship capitalism and freedom and yet the American government owns nearly 40% of all land in the USA.

The greed and dishonesty of corporate employees in America has been a primary factor in helping to push the world economy into recession. And still they wonder why the rest of the world dislikes them.

The Americans think they are disliked because they are rich. They are wrong. Very wrong. They are disliked, in part, because of the way they got rich and because of the way they now behave.

But it is the belligerence and imperialsim of successive American goverments which has really created world-wide hatred for America.

In recent years, America seems to have been forever invading, bombing or encouraging guerrillas - as long as they were right wing, of course. The Americans often manage to kill more of the wrong people or their allies (or both) than of the alleged enemy. Millions of innocents have died at the hands of the ruthless Americans. (Corporate America, however, invariably makes a profit out of war. Before attacking Iraq in 2003, the USA awarded American companies lucrative contracts to rebuild the country.)

A growing - and not inconsiderable - number of people around the world now sincerely believe that even if the American Government didn't actually plan the September 11th attack then they certainly knew about it beforehand. Why would they do such a terrible thing? The argument is a simple one. The September 11th attack has given the American Government an excellent excuse for removing freedom from its own people and for beginning an eternal war against the rest of the world.

Ever since September 11th, the Americans, followed faithfully by the British and the rest of the EU, have been making new laws faster than even the lawyers can keep up with them. There are now laws that even lawyers don't know about. In tomorrow's new world everyone will be a criminal. It will be all too easy for a Government to arrest any citizen who is regarded as a troublemaker.

It is hardly surprising that the world now hates America.

by Vernon Coleman.

Link:

America: Rogue Nation

At first, I didn't beleive it. But President Bush does thumb his nose at international law, such as in this case of the 13 Agents who should be shipped to Germany, and the use of torture is a violation of the Geneva Convention and even America's own policy. So on and so forth.

America should learn to respect other nation's laws, but other nations need to learn to respect ours as well.

[JSmythe]

I can't believe you really think the actual agents involved should be held responsible. That is the height of stupidity. CIA agents don't question orders, and they shouldn't. If you want to throw a hissy fit over some german who got a free trip to Afghanistan and just got slapped around a bit, then go after the policy makers, not the people on the ground trying to keep Americans safe.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by JSmythe

I can't believe you really think the actual agents involved should be held responsible. That is the height of stupidity. CIA agents don't question orders, and they shouldn't. If you want to throw a hissy fit over some german who got a free trip to Afghanistan and just got slapped around a bit, then go after the policy makers, not the people on the ground trying to keep Americans safe.

Ah, they broke the law in another country and the US had no agreement for them to be exempt from law in that nation so of course they should be held accountable in that nation

[JSmythe]

Originally Posted by Kytro

Ah, they broke the law in another country and the US had no agreement for them to be exempt from law in that nation so of course they should be held accountable in that nation

You don't think America worked with the German gvt to "extraordinarily render" suspected terrorists? I think you forget this is an independant prosecutor who has also criticized the role of the German government in cooperating with America. What they did may have been against the law, but I don't think you can say they weren't given permission, without being directly involved in the situation as a high ranking member of the German or American intelligence service. Besides, once again it is not the actions of the individual agents, but the policy that lead to it that should be criticized. Intelligence service agents should not have to worry about facing charges for following orders in the field, that would be an unnecessary distraction.