As Progressive Education fails the Tide Turns

[RMNIXON]

George Will:


"In Arizona, some amazingly persistent and mostly liberal people are demonstrating the tenacity with which some interests fight to prevent parents of modest means from having education choices like those available to most Americans. In 1999, Arizona's Supreme Court upheld a program whereby individuals receive tax credits for donations they make to organizations that provide scholarships to enable children to attend private schools, religious and secular. More than 22,500 children have benefited from the program in a decade. Thousands of families are on waiting lists for scholarships because 600 Arizona schools have failed to meet federal academic requirements.

In 2000, Arizona opponents of school choice, in a suit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union, attacked the program in a federal court. They failed again, in a ruling issued in 2005, which was not surprising, given that in 2002 the U.S. Supreme Court held that there is no constitutional infirmity in government-sponsored and administered programs that involve ``true private choice'' by giving government aid directly to parents, who use it at their discretion for sectarian or nonsectarian schools.

Now Arizona opponents of school choice, thirsting for a third defeat, are challenging what Arizona's Legislature enacted last year. Noting the success of the individual tax credit for scholarship contributions, the Legislature has authorized corporate donors a dollar-for-dollar tax credit for contributions to private, nonprofit school tuition organizations. So opponents of school choice are trudging back to court where they will recycle twice-rejected arguments.

Doing the same thing repeatedly while expecting different results is a sign of insanity, but what really defines the plaintiffs is banality. This is about the control of schools by bureaucrats, about work rules negotiated by unions and, not least, about money -- not allowing any to flow away from the usual channels......"

Read about the Victory in New York and the battle at (Brown vs. Board of Education) Topeka here:

Townhall.com::Sumner Elementary back in the news::By George Will

Spoiler:


"When the school board rejected the application of the two educators -- African-American women -- but praised their dedication to children, one of the women was not mollified: ``A bleeding heart does nothing but ruin the carpet.''


Yes, it will take a lot of work to clean up this public school mess. And if it needs to be done one school at a time grab the mop.

[Galactic Gigolo]

I'm going to school to be a special education teacher, but due to the program I have to be in I am constantly surrounded by those who want to teach general education.

The large majority of them are dipshits in the harshest sense of the word.

However, I don't think that characterizing "Progressive Education" as a whole as a failure is right. As far as the way schools are setup and ran administratively, yes, that may be true. But I think that there are some really good, progressive ideas floating around the field of education that can work if the teachers weren't so vapid.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by Galactic Gigolo

I'm going to school to be a special education teacher, but due to the program I have to be in I am constantly surrounded by those who want to teach general education.

The large majority of them are dipshits in the harshest sense of the word.

That is part of the problem. Good teachers are underpaid. But the job protection and low expectations attracts what kind of people? The dipshits!

And by "progressive" education I did not mean to excluse new ideas that work. Charter schools and parental choice are new ideas! The point is to stop defending what does not work.

[Thorgrim]

There is nothing new about "charter" schools or vouchers, they both failed

With charter schools, they violated the law by cutting assistance to kids in wheelchairs and such to save money because they realized: EDUCATION IS EXPENSIVE and they couldn't turn a profit without screwing over their own students

With vouchers, the best schools wouldn't and won't participate, and you can't force a private school to accept a student

That's why the GOP didn't bring it up seriously during its reign of doom, its a dead issue, they just throw the occasional speech and half-ass measure to please social conservatives, who yearn for the day when everyone gets a big check, all the good schools turn away the vast majority of children, and everyone has thousands of dollars from the government to set up their own ultra-religious schools to divide up the country...look how great Iraq is with their sectarian divides

[RMNIXON]

GOP? Dead Issue? And it's not just charter schools....

"New York's new Democratic governor, Eliot Spitzer, proposes lifting the cap that restricts the state to a mere 100 charter schools. This common-sense idea -- lowering a barrier the government has erected to limit innovative schools that compete with the government's existing system -- is welcome, but not as bold as what Mayor Michael Bloomberg is doing with the nation's largest school system, New York City's, with 1.1 million pupils.

He is dividing large schools into smaller ones, emancipating many principals to be educational entrepreneurs under a system that holds them accountable for cognitive results. The logic of Bloomberg's reforms is that public money should follow wherever students are attracted by competing schools. So school choice is gaining ground in the city that has historically been ground zero for collectivist, centralizing liberalism."


This is total grass roots. It's parents and responcible educators. It is not a GOP cause, it is an "acountability in education" cause. Something that is really for the kids. Even LA Mayor Villaraigosa (DEM) has taken on LA Unified and their dismal record of failure and drop out rate. The Liberal Education "Establishment" is being put on notice.

[Thorgrim]

Nice link

Also note the false dichotomy between some mythical "liberal education monster" and conservative choice schools

Liberals are for schools being held accountable, finding the problems, and fixing them...anything else is either exagerated or is corruption, not liberalism

[JSmythe]

If you are against school choice and for forcing children attend public school, you're a socialist.

Vouchers/choice ftw

[TheScatman]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Nice link

Also note the false dichotomy between some mythical "liberal education monster" and conservative choice schools

Liberals are for schools being held accountable, finding the problems, and fixing them...anything else is either exagerated or is corruption, not liberalism

I really dont know how many times you can make this argument when its just wrong. there is NOTHING that keeps schools accountable like a free market system. you dont put out a good product then you dont make money. and as for fixing problems, the profit motive drives a free market system to fix its problems

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by TheScatman

I really dont know how many times you can make this argument when its just wrong. there is NOTHING that keeps schools accountable like a free market system. you dont put out a good product then you dont make money. and as for fixing problems, the profit motive drives a free market system to fix its problems

*repeat argument about charter schools and vouchers already having failed*

Also, what motivates people to take other jobs, such as working for the government to prosecute criminals...wanting to make the world a better place...some do just because it's a job

Same thing with teaching, you can be highly motivated without a high profit motive

Changing our entire system would be impractical even on your radical terms, there is no secret army of extremely talented teachers waiting to be unleashed if we simply gave them more money

Also, why does everyone ignore the fact that public schools aren't broken?

There are ultra-high quality public schools in rich suburbs that send tons of kids off to be doctors from harvard or lawyers from yale

[TheScatman]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

*repeat argument about charter schools and vouchers already having failed*

Also, what motivates people to take other jobs, such as working for the government to prosecute criminals...wanting to make the world a better place...some do just because it's a job

Same thing with teaching, you can be highly motivated without a high profit motive

Changing our entire system would be impractical even on your radical terms, there is no secret army of extremely talented teachers waiting to be unleashed if we simply gave them more money

Also, why does everyone ignore the fact that public schools aren't broken?

There are ultra-high quality public schools in rich suburbs that send tons of kids off to be doctors from harvard or lawyers from yale

1) with a signal of higher wages you will have mor eintelligent people deciding to go into the field, wouldnt be instantanous but nothing is.

2) competition would reduce the price at which these services were provided at, also would probably cut the fat out of the schools budget (union dues, etc.)

[Thorgrim]

Many things are instantaneous

anyway, what if only a small number of people decide to be a teacher, what if the higher pay doesn't translate into a sizeable increase in quality...then what? Well we have to increase pay more...and more...and more...pretty much (since it would still be paid by the government) you end up with a system 100x more expensive, taking up nearly our entire budget

It's a roll of the dice with our children and one the american people are not willing to take

[TheScatman]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Many things are instantaneous

anyway, what if only a small number of people decide to be a teacher, what if the higher pay doesn't translate into a sizeable increase in quality...then what? Well we have to increase pay more...and more...and more...pretty much (since it would still be paid by the government) you end up with a system 100x more expensive, taking up nearly our entire budget

It's a roll of the dice with our children and one the american people are not willing to take

Exactly, a private free market school wouldnt let the costs do as you described above, since they have the information to balance costs and benefits.

As for your centrally planned school, I think Hayek showed a long time ago why they wont ever suceed...because central planners never know exactly how long to keep kids in school, how to teach them most effectivly, etc.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by TheScatman

Exactly, a private free market school wouldnt let the costs do as you described above, since they have the information to balance costs and benefits.

As for your centrally planned school, I think Hayek showed a long time ago why they wont ever suceed...because central planners never know exactly how long to keep kids in school, how to teach them most effectivly, etc.

Kids coming out of Japanese schools do extremely well then in US state universities and state medicals, etc

It's just a matter of tinkering around, we have the entire international community as a buffet of ideas to pick and choice to make the best system, as we do that, we'll stumble and another country will alter our system to make it a little better and others will, etc

Every country in the world competes, not for money, for the best schools, so there is no need to shove profit-motivation into the situation by dismantling the world's educational systems

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by JSmythe

If you are against school choice and for forcing children attend public school, you're a socialist.

Vouchers/choice ftw

There are private schools all over the country.

You are not forced to go to public school. You are only forced, up until the age of 15-16, to attend a school even if it's at home.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by TheScatman

I really dont know how many times you can make this argument when its just wrong. there is NOTHING that keeps schools accountable like a free market system. you dont put out a good product then you dont make money. and as for fixing problems, the profit motive drives a free market system to fix its problems

If your walking away each election cycle with a bag of Teachers Union money (and that is very big bag) I don't think you can say accountable? Idealistic talk don't cut it.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

There are private schools all over the country.

You are not forced to go to public school. You are only forced, up until the age of 15-16, to attend a school even if it's at home.

OK, so if our public schools are so overcrowded and class reduction is so important then why is it such a crime for a low income parent to take a portion (not all) of that per pupil spending and place their child by choice in a private school? One that can be certified as having as good if not better a performance record than a public schools? I have no problem with standards if public money is spent. Or is it all about putting kids in seats so a system can count heads?

[Donkey®]

I am assuming this is another right-wing bashing of democrats/liberals thread...so i'll just say:

No child left behind failed miserably.

The way to fix schools is to hold the states accountable...hold the schools accountable...hold the people employed by the schools accountable. There should be absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in level of education between a private school and a public school. There should be NO CHARGE for education. Period. From grade school to the end of college. (3 or 4 year STANDARD degree) One should only pay when going for specialized degrees or anything above a bachelors. Stop wasting money in bullshit, like Iraq for example, put that money towards schools. On top of that, start holding people accountable for their actions. Problem solved.

[Thorgrim]

amen donkey

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Galactic Gigolo

I'm going to school to be a special education teacher, but due to the program I have to be in I am constantly surrounded by those who want to teach general education.

The large majority of them are dipshits in the harshest sense of the word.

However, I don't think that characterizing "Progressive Education" as a whole as a failure is right. As far as the way schools are setup and ran administratively, yes, that may be true. But I think that there are some really good, progressive ideas floating around the field of education that can work if the teachers weren't so vapid.

I tried out the education major thing when I was trying to find my niche. I took a couple core classes in Education one semester and disliked the people in the classes. Almost all of them were worthless human beings who I did not want to associate myself with. A strong reason why education is failing is because of the quality of people going into the field. The people going into special needs tend to be far superior, but the average Education student was lazy and quite honestly, ungrounded.

Based on my limited experience, I don't see the future of public education being positive. While there are a lot of good ideas floating around, the unions and the type of people going into the field aren't going to be able to turn around the problems.