Democrats pull the same shit Republicans did v.Support The Troops, Support Our Policy

motivez · 02-05-2007, 02:00 AM

Saw this on the front page of Daily Kos earlier. Maybe it's been made a valid tactic by the Republican's bullshit use of linking "support" for the troops to support for their policies, but it's bullshit anyway.

They can win the debate on this issue through the merits of their position, because the Bush/McCain escalation is a bad idea that isn't going to fix anything, they don't need to resort to bullshit tactics like this, but yet they are... it's sad.

YouTube Video

This clip played during the Superbowl in select cities. While I don't disagree with their message about opposing the escalation, it's just sad to me that they're using the troops as the political football the same way Republicans did in order to garner support for their position.

Thorgrim · 02-05-2007, 02:08 AM

Vote Vets is not affiliated nor does it coordinate with the DNC/DSCC/DCCC

I think this is a step above gutter politics because it attacks a position not a person when it talks about "supporting the troops"

It's anti-escalation, and its very much a fact that any news organization, even fox, will have articles talking about how more generals than not think this is a BS idea and its going to end up getting more US soldiers killed

Is it the best way we can be conducting politics? No but when you have the GOP telling people that the resolution will embolden terrorist and give aid and comfort to our enemies (basically Democrats are traitors who should be hanged) you get to sub-optimal levels

Kytro · 02-05-2007, 02:26 AM

The troops should be there to do a job, as required. It is policy one should oppose or support.

Pro Street · 02-05-2007, 09:35 AM

It's in response to Republicans saying any plan not of the GOP isn't supporting the troops.

It's not the same shit, and not from the Dems.

motivez · 02-05-2007, 02:32 PM

Oh give me a break. just because it's not "officially" affiliated with this or that several letter Democratic organization doesn't mean it's not the Democrats. It's the same thing as Swift Boat Vets for Truth being affiliated with Republicans.

It's not just this advertisement that's been doing it, several prominent Democrats have said that if people really want to support the troops, they'll support their policy decisions / non binding resolutions.

It's exactly the same stuff, and it's exactly as pathetic of a tactic as when the Republicans do it. You can disagree with policy decisions of both parties and still support troops.. anyone who says otherwise is full of shit. It's intellectually dishonest to sit around here when Democrats were in the minority and criticize Republicans for doing this stuff, but sit idly by and pretend it's acceptable because the Democrats do it and you happen to agree with their position (and I do agree with their position).

As I said, Democrats can win this argument on the merits of their position, they don't need to resort to Rovian / GOP style straw man arguments to do it. The American people back them and oppose the Bush/McCain resolution already, so they should live up to some higher standards than the Republicans did.

lew · 02-05-2007, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Oh give me a break. just because it's not "officially" affiliated with this or that several letter Democratic organization doesn't mean it's not the Democrats. It's the same thing as Swift Boat Vets for Truth being affiliated with Republicans.

It's not just this advertisement that's been doing it, several prominent Democrats have said that if people really want to support the troops, they'll support their policy decisions / non binding resolutions.

It's exactly the same stuff, and it's exactly as pathetic of a tactic as when the Republicans do it. You can disagree with policy decisions of both parties and still support troops.. anyone who says otherwise is full of shit. It's intellectually dishonest to sit around here when Democrats were in the minority and criticize Republicans for doing this stuff, but sit idly by and pretend it's acceptable because the Democrats do it and you happen to agree with their position (and I do agree with their position).

As I said, Democrats can win this argument on the merits of their position, they don't need to resort to Rovian / GOP style straw man arguments to do it. The American people back them and oppose the Bush/McCain resolution already, so they should live up to some higher standards than the Republicans did.

Thorgrim · 02-05-2007, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Oh give me a break. just because it's not "officially" affiliated with this or that several letter Democratic organization doesn't mean it's not the Democrats. It's the same thing as Swift Boat Vets for Truth being affiliated with Republicans.

It's not just this advertisement that's been doing it, several prominent Democrats have said that if people really want to support the troops, they'll support their policy decisions / non binding resolutions.

It's exactly the same stuff, and it's exactly as pathetic of a tactic as when the Republicans do it. You can disagree with policy decisions of both parties and still support troops.. anyone who says otherwise is full of shit. It's intellectually dishonest to sit around here when Democrats were in the minority and criticize Republicans for doing this stuff, but sit idly by and pretend it's acceptable because the Democrats do it and you happen to agree with their position (and I do agree with their position).

As I said, Democrats can win this argument on the merits of their position, they don't need to resort to Rovian / GOP style straw man arguments to do it. The American people back them and oppose the Bush/McCain resolution already, so they should live up to some higher standards than the Republicans did.

swift boat veterans had a link of donors with ties to the white house and a history of those donors basicaly chronically setting up slander machines, vote vets has none of those qualities

id like to see the quotes of what politicians have said...heck Taylor from Mississippi is a Democrat, he basically never votes with the Democrats...so id like to judge on my own by seeing their words

What made the GOP particularly disgusting is that they won voters over by claiming to be the party of absolute principles, and then switched over to "ends justify the means"

Democrats have always been "ends justify the means" so when we play hardball, most times i don't get angry because we're an open party and every voters know how we act, infact they think we are worse than we are

Scrum · 02-05-2007, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Oh give me a break. just because it's not "officially" affiliated with this or that several letter Democratic organization doesn't mean it's not the Democrats. It's the same thing as Swift Boat Vets for Truth being affiliated with Republicans.

It's not just this advertisement that's been doing it, several prominent Democrats have said that if people really want to support the troops, they'll support their policy decisions / non binding resolutions.

It's exactly the same stuff, and it's exactly as pathetic of a tactic as when the Republicans do it. You can disagree with policy decisions of both parties and still support troops.. anyone who says otherwise is full of shit. It's intellectually dishonest to sit around here when Democrats were in the minority and criticize Republicans for doing this stuff, but sit idly by and pretend it's acceptable because the Democrats do it and you happen to agree with their position (and I do agree with their position).

As I said, Democrats can win this argument on the merits of their position, they don't need to resort to Rovian / GOP style straw man arguments to do it. The American people back them and oppose the Bush/McCain resolution already, so they should live up to some higher standards than the Republicans did.

I don't like the tactic, personally. I didn't like it when the republicans did it, and I don't like it when the democrats do it.

The only thing is that the Dems need to take more of a hardline stance here. They have been insulted over and over for the past 6+ years being called everything from "weak on terrorism" to "traitors" by people who don't have the troops well being in mind. It's just political bullshit. Sometimes you need to counter bullshit with bullshit.

JaJae · 02-05-2007, 04:02 PM

Wesley Clark has strong ties to this group. In fact, if you click the link you'll see it was posted on YouTube by Wesley Clark (or his staff). Clark is on the board for this group.

His group WESPAC is actively fundraising for this group and the DNC is expected to plan fundraising at their winter meeting this week. There's no concrete or direct public ties to the DNC just yet, but there will be. Much like the swiftboats, these guys aren't run and controlled by their affiliated party, but there is correlation and support.

Thorgrim · 02-05-2007, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

Wesley Clark has strong ties to this group. In fact, if you click the link you'll see it was posted on YouTube by Wesley Clark (or his staff). Clark is on the board for this group.

His group WESPAC is actively fundraising for this group and the DNC is expected to plan fundraising at their winter meeting this week. There's no concrete or direct public ties to the DNC just yet, but there will be. Much like the swiftboats, these guys aren't run and controlled by their affiliated party, but there is correlation and support.

Remember swift boats only did attack ads on someones military service

Vote Vets has done a lot more than this one batch of ads, and for all you know Clark disagreed, but he doesn't run the friggin thing...if the veterans want to make it more personal thats their decision

If you think like Howard Dean and Hillary Clinton are pulling their strings, you're crazy

I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a democrat

JaJae · 02-05-2007, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Remember swift boats only did attack ads on someones military service

Vote Vets has done a lot more than this one batch of ads, and for all you know Clark disagreed, but he doesn't run the friggin thing...if the veterans want to make it more personal thats their decision

If you think like Howard Dean and Hillary Clinton are pulling their strings, you're crazy

I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a democrat

What difference does it make if swift boats attack Kerry's service or these votevets attack Bush's policies? I don't see how it matters.

And I highly doubt Wesley Clark disagrees with this ad considering his WesPAC in large funded it and distributed it over the internet. That ad was posted under HIS personal youtube account. You can also find it on the homepage of HIS myspace account... Above any mention of himself!!!!

The #1 weblink from votevets is back to Wesley Clark's campaign website. To say Clark doesn't run them might be true, however, he is their leading benefactor and distributor. Not only that, Wesley Clark has even appeared in some of their commercials.
http://www.ifilms.tv/votevets2/VV_Because_NATL.mov
He basically acts like their spokesman.

The video is paid for by votevets.org.. but they receive most of their funding, distribution, etc from Wesley Clark. This is very much as much of an extension of Clark (possibly more) as the Swift Boats was of Republicans. Clark isn't an elected official, but he is running to be the Democrats presidential candidate. And the DNC is very likely to be supporting this group as well. Not to mention there will be if there aren't already many Democrats using these ads to further themselves like the GOP did the swiftboats.

tbone · 02-05-2007, 05:49 PM

Disgusting etiher way it's done.

Thorgrim · 02-05-2007, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

What difference does it make if swift boats attack Kerry's service or these votevets attack Bush's policies? .

See my point motivez? That's the difference between the two ads

nbiggershaft · 02-06-2007, 02:43 AM

My roomate is an Iraq war veteran and he feels the same way. Hopefully his message will get out and he won't have to go back die there in a few months. You may or may not see puppetmasters being the scenes here, but I don't see how it's any different than veterans speaking out against the Vietnam war (and if you think that was disgusting you are batshit crazy)

Pro Street · 02-06-2007, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by motivez

Oh give me a break. just because it's not "officially" affiliated with this or that several letter Democratic organization doesn't mean it's not the Democrats. It's the same thing as Swift Boat Vets for Truth being affiliated with Republicans.

It's not just this advertisement that's been doing it, several prominent Democrats have said that if people really want to support the troops, they'll support their policy decisions / non binding resolutions.

It's exactly the same stuff, and it's exactly as pathetic of a tactic as when the Republicans do it. You can disagree with policy decisions of both parties and still support troops.. anyone who says otherwise is full of shit. It's intellectually dishonest to sit around here when Democrats were in the minority and criticize Republicans for doing this stuff, but sit idly by and pretend it's acceptable because the Democrats do it and you happen to agree with their position (and I do agree with their position).

As I said, Democrats can win this argument on the merits of their position, they don't need to resort to Rovian / GOP style straw man arguments to do it. The American people back them and oppose the Bush/McCain resolution already, so they should live up to some higher standards than the Republicans did.

wtf are you coming from?

I said the same thing as the "Swift Boat" people as well in 2004. If you're going to say, "Dems pull the same shit" you'd think it came from... well, the dems.

And it's NOT AT ALL what you are saying. It's countering Bush's constant stating that not supporting any decision made by him is not supporting the troops.

There's no way to misinterpret this.