Prophecy Fulfillment, "Hiding" In Plain Sight?

Winter · 02-06-2007, 09:43 AM

****Sorry about the typo on the title...just noticed it! Oops.****

So something that you guys don't know about me yet (since I am still relatively new here) is that in addition to being fascinated with politics, I am also an avid student of religious study. I study about many different religions and enjoy learning what different people believe and why.

I am not a "church-goer" and don't consider myself of any particular religious persuasion. If I had to pin it down, I'd say that my personal beliefs are along the lines of Protestant Christian. Although mainstream Christianity/and Protestantism is a joke.

Anyway...a topic of particular interest to me lately has been a highly debated prophecy that appears in both the books of Daniel and Matthew. It reads as such:

"And forces shall be mustered by him and they shall defile tha Sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation." Daniel 11:31

"Therefore when you see the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the Holy place, let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field, not go back to get his clothes..." Matthew 24:15-18

For some particualr reason, the subject of what IS the "abomination of desolation" has intrigued me for some time. There are many different theories and I would guess that the most common is that sometime soon, the "Dome of the Rock" (the holiest muslim site) which stands where the original Temple of Solomon was originally erected, will be destroyed so that the Jews can "re-build" the temple. According to the Bible, the original Temple was the only place where the actual "presence of God" manifested itself. That would make it the most likely "holy place" that these prophecies refer to. Naturally, the odds of the Dome of the Rock being destroyed so that the Jews can re-build the temple are virtually NIL! I can't see any way that could happen without triggering an all out 3rd world war...and it is unlikely that after a war of such likely destruction...ANYTHING will be "re-built" in that region.

So...what then is the "abomination of desolation?" After much researching and reading, I have come to the conclusion that the "abomination" is not something that is yet to come, but is the actual Dome of the Rock itself. This may seem far-fetched to some, and I can't find much (really anything) that illudes to this, but the muslim religion (the muslim nation in general) was born out of generations that date back to Abrahams illegitimate son Ishmael who God said would be the father of many nations of strife. This is because Abraham and Sarah didn't trust God's word that they would conceive a son in their old age (and since Sarah was barren) so Sarah gave Abraham her maidservant Haggar to procreate with in order that the promise would be fulfilled. The son conceived as a result was naturally, illegitimate and NOT the son of the promise. Needless to say, Abraham and Sarah did later receive the promise when they conceived Isaac.

For centuries, the battles in the middle east date back to conflicts over the "birth-right" of the land between the descendents of Ishmael and the descendants of Isaac. (Muslims and Jews, basically.)

So the very forces behind the muslim religion and the fact that the Dome of the Rock stands on the former Holy ground would logically seem an abomination. One that many people seem to completely overlook. It surprises me, really that more people don't hold this belief. Could the infamous "abomination of desolation" be so plainly "hidden?" If so, why are people so apt to believe it is something yet to happen?

My question would be...are any of you familiar with any of this, and if so...what are your thoughts about it?

imind · 02-06-2007, 04:58 PM

am i to understand, then, that you do believe the bible to be the word of god? at the very least, you believe in biblical prophecy?

i honestly don't know what those words refer to, but i must ask, what is the point of prophecy if we have no idea what its speaking of?

welcome to the board, btw.

Rouger2 · 02-06-2007, 06:03 PM

I hope that your view is right. One could come up with some dandy interpetations of abomination of desolation that would not be very healthy for this world.

Winter · 02-06-2007, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by imind

am i to understand, then, that you do believe the bible to be the word of god? at the very least, you believe in biblical prophecy?

i honestly don't know what those words refer to, but i must ask, what is the point of prophecy if we have no idea what its speaking of?

welcome to the board, btw.

I believe in God and that the Bible is inspired by God. My beliefs in Biblical prophecy accuracy are based on former prophecies that have been accurately fulfilled. An example would be the predictions of all four world-dominating empires (by name) hundreds of years before they happened:

Babylon
Medo-Persia
Greece
Rome

And as it discusses in the book of Daniel, it was predicted that another world-dominating empire would not arise but instead, the 4th (Rome) would be broken up into seperate "kingdoms" (the modern nations of Europe that we know today.

I could spend days talking about this all, but I frankly don't think anyone really cares too much.

imind · 02-06-2007, 07:45 PM

I could spend days talking about this all, but I frankly don't think anyone really cares too much.

i care, inasmuch as i find it interesting to read about and discuss.

could you provide me with links to info on the prophecies you mentioned, from the christian persspective? have you ever read criticisms of those 'fulfillments'?

Winter · 02-06-2007, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by imind

i care, inasmuch as i find it interesting to read about and discuss.

could you provide me with links to info on the prophecies you mentioned, from the christian persspective? have you ever read criticisms of those 'fulfillments'?

First, thank you for welcoming me to the board. I am glad to be here.

Second...after reading your thread about Islam, I believe that you will likely try to provoke an argument about differences in our personal religious persuasions. I am not here to attack Islam. I am, in fact, intrigued by it...as well as other religions. Whether I subscribe to what you believe or not does not mean that I am against your beliefs.

Naturally, according to the Jedeo-Christian Bible, an establishment of vastly differing fundamental teachings that occupies the "Holy ground" as described in the Judeo-Christian Bible, would clearly be an "abomination" in accordance with those Biblical beliefs and standards.

We can link to sites detailing our beliefs all day, but it won't change the fact that we will more than likely disagree. I would suggest that if you are truly interested in understanding my beliefs, I'd be happy to assist in your study of my Bible and the prophecies described therein.

Otherwise, there are no websites, churches or religious organizations along the lines of my beliefs that are completely accurate, truthful or driven by pure intentions. So a website designed by someone or an organization with differing beliefs to mine would be to spite myself.

But as I stated previously, I'd be happy to embark upon a process of learning & understanding of my beliefs with you...but it's a LONG road.

Dylith · 02-06-2007, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Winter

though mainstream Christianity/and Protestantism is a joke.

I would generally agree with you (way to much extra Bliblical emphasis).

"And forces shall be mustered by him and they shall defile tha Sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation." Daniel 11:31

I generally see this Abomination of desolation as a severe sin that is being predicted. I would say that this sin would either be commited against the Jews or by the Jews. (The Dome of the Rock was neither). I think that it may have been talking about many things. Among them, could deal with Antiochus IV Epiphanes' sack of Jerusalem. (He slaughtered many Jews and sacrificed a pig inside the holy temple which was considered an unclean animal). As a result of this the Jews revolted (Book of Maccabees). This revolt ends up resulting in the Jewish holiday of Hanukkah. It seems to fit nicely even though there is some dispute in the theological world over it and is not generally my favorite interpretation of it.

"Therefore when you see the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the Holy place, let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field, not go back to get his clothes..." Matthew 24:15-18

This verse makes the above explination seem unlikely. this talks about a future battle when Jerusalem seems to be taken away from the Jews and the Jews are forced to flee "to the hills". This doesn't seem to be the case at the moment as the Jews are the strongest military power in the region. Your Dome of the Rock theory seems interesting and might very well fit. Though, even though the Dome of the Rock may be Islamic, it is still a temple dedicated to Yahweh. It is not a "pagan" shrine or a shrine to a pantheon of dieties, but to God. what exactly is was the abomination that was performed?

This passage could instead be talking about old Roman Pagan influence in the area (sacrifices to Jupiter and so on) and to the destruction of the second temple and destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. I have even heard it referred to as a prophecy of the destruction of the temple that was Jesus by the Romans, this also would have been a great abomination.

All these things aside whatever this event is, it is suppose to herald the coming Apocalypse. We have the destruction of the temple (either the actual temple by the Romans or Jesus, this would be the abomination). Next we have strife among the nations of the world and with Israel, which we have now and have had ever since.

The thing is though, where is the second coming?

Some Christians see this passage as referring to Christianity overcoming and dominating the Roman Empire, but many see it as the end times. Where is the fourth nation that is suppose to devour the world though? The Muslims? They haven't been a unified nation for over a thousand years.

My Grandparents saw this verse as referring to the WWII generation. They pointed to the rise and fall of the Nazis and WWII. Then they pointed to the creation of Israel and to them reclaiming their homeland and defending it. However their generation is dying out (including my grandparents).

Dylith · 02-06-2007, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Winter

I believe in God and that the Bible is inspired by God. My beliefs in Biblical prophecy accuracy are based on former prophecies that have been accurately fulfilled. An example would be the predictions of all four world-dominating empires (by name) hundreds of years before they happened:

Babylon
Medo-Persia
Greece
Rome

And as it discusses in the book of Daniel, it was predicted that another world-dominating empire would not arise but instead, the 4th (Rome) would be broken up into seperate "kingdoms" (the modern nations of Europe that we know today.

I could spend days talking about this all, but I frankly don't think anyone really cares too much.

So you are taking Rome to be the fourth Kingdom, this would make sense as the abomination is usually seen as the Romans destroying the temple. then we see Christianity rising up to dominate the Roman Empire and Europe. The problem arises that the generation that witnesses all of this isn't suppose to die off until the end times occur (according to Matthew), but they obviously did.

Dylith · 02-06-2007, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Winter

But as I stated previously, I'd be happy to embark upon a process of learning & understanding of my beliefs with you...but it's a LONG road.

They are all long roads which makes people a little reluctant to discuss them. It takes quite a bit of time to even get a general understanding of Biblical prophecy. So many possabilities and so much educated guess work and symbolism, not to mention translational differences. Does generation in this specific passage actually mean that generation or that race of people for example. I don't usually spend as much time speculating on this particular prophecy owing to its size and owing to how many possibilities there are for its meaning. I usually concentrate on smaller prophecies such as the one dealing with the nations of Gog and Magog, or I concentrate on specific Biblical characters such as Azazel.

imind · 02-07-2007, 06:01 PM

Second...after reading your thread about Islam, I believe that you will likely try to provoke an argument about differences in our personal religious persuasions. I am not here to attack Islam. I am, in fact, intrigued by it...as well as other religions. Whether I subscribe to what you believe or not does not mean that I am against your beliefs.

i have no religious persuasions, and my being a muslim (hypothetically) would in no way pre-dispose me to arguement.

We can link to sites detailing our beliefs all day, but it won't change the fact that we will more than likely disagree. I would suggest that if you are truly interested in understanding my beliefs, I'd be happy to assist in your study of my Bible and the prophecies described therein.

i was raised catholic so am already familiar with the bible, but not necessarily with prophecy, so would welcome your understanding of it.

not believing in prophecy, biblical or otherwise, yes, we are likely to disagree, and i asked for links merely to gain some understanding of it. though if you'd like to present it, feel free.

Otherwise, there are no websites, churches or religious organizations along the lines of my beliefs that are completely accurate, truthful or driven by pure intentions. So a website designed by someone or an organization with differing beliefs to mine would be to spite myself.

this seems to me, and i mean you no offense, a rather arrogant statement, as it suggests that only you are 'completely accurate, truthful or driven by pure intentions'. i can overlook this, though, as i don't see it interfering with the discussion.

But as I stated previously, I'd be happy to embark upon a process of learning & understanding of my beliefs with you...but it's a LONG road.

understand that i have no intention of using this thread to ridicule you or your beliefs in any way. though do be advised that i will more than likely critique them, according to my beliefs, of course. i see no reason that this cnversation cannot be mutually beneficial to us both. having said that, please begin...

oh, and i expect dylith's participation to only benefit this thread, as his appreciation for prophecy is obviously much greater than mine.

up|dn · 02-10-2007, 12:04 AM

Prophecies are great. They're so ambiguous, they can mean almost anything. Heck, there are people whose whole career is based on prophecy interpretation. Millions of books have been sold dealing with apocalyptic literature like Daniel and Revelation, and that doesn't even get into the dozens of apocalyptic writings that didn't make it into the religious canons.

I'm willing to bet the original author had something regarding the Second Temple in mind (which was destroyed in 70 AD). There's probably enough political strife and temple desecration within the first century to fulfill that prophecy a dozen times. Most likely it is referring to the erection of the statue of Zeus in that temple, which occurred in 167 BCE. Many scolars date the book of Daniel to between 168-164 BCE, which means this isn't so much prophecy as a common feature in apocalyptic literature: a pretense of antiquity and prophecy.

cleverest · 02-16-2007, 07:41 PM

You guys all give worthwhile points about physical temples and places, times, etc... but where is the understanding of:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Surely these passages are dealing with more then physical buildings in a long forgotten time...I mean it makes good history and all, but I mean if these passages hold any real relavence for us today, reading them....it's in the passage above, where we are told the Spirit of God dwells...

We set up things in our temple all the time that run contrary to God's desire, this is certainly part of the masterplan, but it's important to see that we seek to place upon the throne of our temple things to replace God...this "man of sin", this son of perdition, is a very large abomination. We also have mountains, valleys, and beasts to overcome.

Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Hint * you can't "keep" something that won't occur for another thousand years or already occured 2k years ago, but you can keep something that deals directly with your life NOW, if we struggle to unbind these truths with extra-biblical explanations, or the wisdom of a man, or the power of denomination, we will be as John was:

Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Thankfully we have a source of wisdom that can OPEN the book, when all else fails [Italic comment clarification is mine]:

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David[Jesus Christ], hath prevailed to open the book , and to loose the seven seals thereof.

If Christ does not 'lose these seven [COMPLETE] seals' for a person, they cannot even open and "read" the truths therein, they only see history lessons or some such physical extra-biblical explanation of these things.