Haggard "Completely Heterosexual" after rehab

[R-Type]

Originally Posted by lew

No.

I rest my case.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by motivez

They were talking about this on NPR today. The Christian community (at least, the part Haggard was a part of) doesn't even believe in homosexual people. They think they're simply sinning and the devil and blah blah blah, so if they renounce their sins and follow Christ, then this and that and so on and so forth.

He can deny his sexual desires and impulses all he wants, it's not going to change his true orientation as a bisexual.

Well I think you've hit the nail on the head.

I'll be completely honest, I dont know how I feel about homosexuality in terms of choice vs nature...I've read a lot on it and have now three friends that are either bisexual or homosexual. One of them says its been a choice the other two say it just happened naturally. BUt it is important to note that the one that says its a choice, seems to be using that as a cover and that he's not totally ready to "come out"...

The christian community seems to for the most part not listen to the bible when it comes to homosexuality and sin. The bible says that sin is sin and that God loves the sinner but hates the sin, so by that notion homosexuals do not go to hell (despite what many christians say). This disturbs me greatly quite honestly because they're ignoring key aspects of scripture as they relate to sin.

Good news is that this is starting to change, specifically with my generation.

[Diamond Cross]

The only reason they say it's natrural is because everyone else says it's not, when it's not natural. They need to get their noses out of their asses and admit it is a choice.

[lew]

Originally Posted by R-Type

I rest my case.

You have no case. You have presented no facts.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

The only reason they say it's natrural is because everyone else says it's not, when it's not natural. They need to get their noses out of their asses and admit it is a choice.

It may not be "natural" but how do you know its not a genetic predisposition? It's not natural for people to be 7ft 2, that is wayyy outside the norm but genetics determined their height.

[R-Type]

Originally Posted by lew

You have no case. You have presented no facts.

neither has the religious right, and that's my point.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

The only reason they say it's natrural is because everyone else says it's not, when it's not natural. They need to get their noses out of their asses and admit it is a choice.

So you could just decide to be gay right now, have sex with a man and enjoy it?

[R-Type]

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

The only reason they say it's natrural is because everyone else says it's not, when it's not natural. They need to get their noses out of their asses and admit it is a choice.

...or perhaps those who say it's not natural do so because they don't WANT to think something so 'icky' could be. I'll take the word of biologists over bigoted, insecure, religious people who have emotional reasons to constantly reaffirm their religious beliefs to themselves and the world. I'll bet for gays it feels just as 'natural' to be turned on by the same sex as heteros feel towards the opposite, and bisexuals feel it for both, to greater or lesser degrees.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Well duh, one of them chooses to do the cool thing and live a lifestyle shunned by society.

never get that argument. Every other sexual lifestyle that society shuns is a choice. Adultry, s&m, bigamy, etc.....

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

So you could just decide to be gay right now, have sex with a man and enjoy it?

Lots of men do. And gay men have been known to have sex with women and enjoy it

[imind]

Originally Posted by lew

Science?



Science has not determined how one becomes a homosexual. So, it could be true that he is no longer having homosexual impulses. I'm not saying he is or isn't. He's a scumbag. I just find it funny when people are talking about science in this thread, when science hasn't proven anything regarding this.

the science of 'conversion therapy', though, is fairly well documented, and most of the science conducted to determine cause is most definately leading to biological factors.

Austrian scientists reported this month that switching a single gene was enough to make female fruit flies rebuff males and attempt to mate with other females. Swedish researchers recently found the sexual center of gay men's brains lit up when they sniffed a pheromone-like chemical from men's sweat, but didn't respond to a chemical from women.

And last fall, Italian scientists offered a possible explanation for the persistence of gay genes — even though evolution tends to weed out traits that discourage reproduction. The team from the University of Padua found that mothers and aunts of gay men had more offspring than female relatives of heterosexuals, suggesting genes that influence homosexuality in men may increase fertility in females.

That the evidence comes from such disparate directions leads scientists to suspect several different biological pathways may lead to homosexuality. Both genes and hormones appear to be important. Nor do researchers discount the possibility that social factors may play a role.

link

Originally Posted by lew

Yet only ~50% of identical twins are both homosexual ? Same genes, same hormones, almost exact same experiences after birth.

being identical genetically does not mean identical pre-natal experiences...

New York University researcher Lynn S. Hall, who has studied traits determined in the womb, speculates that Patrick was somehow prenatally stressed, probably during the first trimester, when the brain is really developing, particularly the structures like the hypothalamus that influence sexual behavior. This stress might have been based on his position in the womb or the blood flow to him or any of a number of other factors not in his mother's control. Yet more evidence that identical twins have womb experiences far from identical can be found in their often differing birth weights. Patrick was born a pound lighter than Thomas.

link

and with 'imprinted genes'...

So how might imprinted genes help explain why one identical twin would be straight and the other gay? Say there's an imprinted gene for attraction to females, and there's something atypical in the copy the twin brothers get from mom. As all that replicating is going on, the imprinting (to keep the copy from dad shut down) proceeds as expected in one twin, and he ends up gay. But somehow with his brother, the coding for the imprinting is lost, and rather than remain shut down, the fuel flows to fire up the backup engine from dad. And that twin turns out to be straight.

same link as above

the article i quoted above is a good read on the research currently being done to discover cause, and i would recommend everyone reading it. it seems that the consensus suggests that male sexuality is definately determined pre-natally, and discusses the differences with females.

[6SpeedTA95]

So imind that points to nurture over nature does it not? If its based on experiences and not genetics.

[imind]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

So imind that points to nurture over nature does it not? If its based on experiences and not genetics.

please explain how you came to that conclusion.

[6SpeedTA95]

This article is pretty vague about the development of the twins.

[imind]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

This article is pretty vague about the development of the twins.

it is, yes, but shuts down the notion that that in order for there to a biological basis for homosexuality, all identical twins must be gay, and i still don't understand how you were left to conclude that its more nurture versus nature. nurture, as i understand it, is post not pre-natal development.

the article also spoke of many physiological differences between gay and straight men.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by imind

please explain how you came to that conclusion.

Been busy here at work, it looks like I misread it, I'll read the entire article tonight

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

never get that argument. Every other sexual lifestyle that society shuns is a choice. Adultry, s&m, bigamy, etc.....

Do we know that there isn't a predisposition for these things?

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Lots of men do. And gay men have been known to have sex with women and enjoy it

Not lots of men. You.

Can you just decide to have sex with a man right now and enjoy it?

[Rouger2]

The scientific comunity is so effected by political correctness that they are absolutely useless in helping understand homosexuality.

[imind]

Originally Posted by Rouger2

The scientific comunity is so effected by political correctness that they are absolutely useless in helping understand homosexuality.

nonsense. this is a baseless accusation.

Originally Posted by 7960

Been busy here at work, it looks like I misread it,

understandable.

[Kytro]

From the evidence I have seen there is probably some genetic predisposition involving homosexuality, though it is not only genetic

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Well duh, one of them chooses to do the cool thing and live a lifestyle shunned by society.

The only drawback is the homosexual sex, but it's worth a sausage in the poop-chute to get all the other perks involved in choosing to be gay.