Haggard "Completely Heterosexual" after rehab

[motivez]

The idea that it's a simple choice is ridiculous.

Anyone who says they woke up one day during puberty and actually made a decision to be sexually attracted to a specific gender is full of shit. That moment doesn't ever happen.

One day you simply stop running away from the cooties and chasing after the proverbial cooter.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by imind

and it does!

i'll never understand how such a large segment of the christian population can so easily dismiss science. i've discussed this with a few and they simply don't care that these 'conversions' aren't documented scientifically. its enough that the 'converted' say that they are, and will take this testimony and use it as incontrovertible proof it can happen.

The cause of homosexuality isn't documented scientifically either.

As far as Christians believing such things, homosexuality is a sin just like anything else: murder, stealing, lying, etc. Can one become forgiven and 'cleansed' of these other sins? Of course. So why can't homosexuality be just the same?

You cannot bring 'science' into this...there isn't any.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Yet only ~50% of identical twins are both homosexual ? Same genes, same hormones, almost exact same experiences after birth.

You realize you are making the case for scientific predetermination of homosexuality right.

If about homosexuality occurs in, lets say 5% of individuals. And it occurs in 50% of those with a homosexual twin.............. Survey says, correlation.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

The cause of homosexuality isn't documented scientifically either.

As far as Christians believing such things, homosexuality is a sin just like anything else: murder, stealing, lying, etc. Can one become forgiven and 'cleansed' of these other sins? Of course. So why can't homosexuality be just the same?

You cannot bring 'science' into this...there isn't any.

To say there is no science in it is to say there is no science in the brain. I suppose for a Christian, the soul and such may be more responsible for making lifestyle decisions. But for a non-christian the whole sinning thing is meaningless drivel and decisions are based on brain chemistry, I think that is all anyone is saying.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

To say there is no science in it is to say there is no science in the brain.

The science of the brain is not very well understood. I'm merely suggesting there is no science proving a biological cause of homosexuality.

But for a non-christian the whole sinning thing is meaningless drivel and decisions are based on brain chemistry, I think that is all anyone is saying.

Tell me, what is the brain chemistry behind murdering, stealing, etc.? We can't understand what it is that drives one person to do one thing and others to keep from doing the same thing. What makes you think we can understand homosexuality?

I understand the differences between Christians and non-Christians. However, this thread is an attempt to mock Christians believing that he has put an end to his sin in homosexuality. So in this thread, we're dealing with Christians and their beliefs. It's no surprise that non-Christians would just point their fingers and laugh for no good reason. They do that at everything a Christian does.

[Nonphixion]

The male prostitute who disclosed Haggard's repeated visits to him was on CNN after the story broke, stating;

"It's hard to picture a man like Ted Haggard -- after giving oral sex, saying he is completely heterosexual after just a 3 week stay in the desert. I just can't imagine that happening"

[mididoctors]

I would characterise haggard as a twisted evil cunt... no empathy for his actions or remorse for the consequences of his own failings and a need to comfort himself through the creation of a power base built on the willingness of weaker willed individuals dupped into a psychological trap where a loss of belief results in a pretty hefty mental breakdown..


Being trapped in this state means they are more likely to accept ridiculous explanations rather than confront the enormity of ones own stupidity in surrendering ones will to this deranged fuck stick.

once you have signed over to absolute certainty your position as a free individual capable of criticism is tempered by the insecurity of challenging ones own insecurities and self image. what follows is the willingness in believing anything even contradicting things rather than admit identity loss and breakdown.

the empowerment of religious fervor by the strasussians in the 1970's and the reagan campaign spelt the end of US secularism and greatness

some sort of re-establishment of the rational over the irrational will be construded as an attack on freedom of religious values... there is no going back the rot set in over 20 years ago.

if haggard can be accepted back into the fold without contrition for this level of hypocrisy then NOTHING will convince people to question their identity in relation to religious fundamentalism in the US


Boris
London

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by motivez

The idea that it's a simple choice is ridiculous.

Anyone who says they woke up one day during puberty and actually made a decision to be sexually attracted to a specific gender is full of shit. That moment doesn't ever happen.

One day you simply stop running away from the cooties and chasing after the proverbial cooter.

Washington Democrat!



Sorry, I could not help myself!

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by mididoctors

I would characterise haggard as a twisted evil cunt... no empathy for his actions or remorse for the consequences of his own failings and a need to comfort himself through the creation of a power base built on the willingness of weaker willed individuals dupped into a psychological trap where a loss of belief results in a pretty hefty mental breakdown..

In short he is a manipulating self-absorbed bastard strait or gay. Gay people can't be bad people too?

[imind]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

The cause of homosexuality isn't documented scientifically either.

As far as Christians believing such things, homosexuality is a sin just like anything else: murder, stealing, lying, etc. Can one become forgiven and 'cleansed' of these other sins? Of course. So why can't homosexuality be just the same?

You cannot bring 'science' into this...there isn't any.

as has been said several times already in this thread, no, its not documented specifically, but to suggest there is no science, or there can be no scientific understanding of sexuality is erroneous. did you read the article i posted?

one can be forgiven and 'cleansed' for sins, but we are not inherently liars, cheaters, stealers (well, most of us, anyway), these things, these actions are not inate needs living creatures experience. sex, on the other hand, is, and our sex drive is something most definately biological (ie, hormones).

try this. make yourself homosexual. go ahead, will yourself into being attracted to men. many people know this to be true, but think that its something a homosexual can (and should) do. its absurd.

Tell me, what is the brain chemistry behind murdering, stealing, etc.? We can't understand what it is that drives one person to do one thing and others to keep from doing the same thing. What makes you think we can understand homosexuality?

most murdering, etc., is in response to something else, and rarely done simply for the pleasure. yes, it does happen, and believe it could possibly be discovered to be a neurological 'condition'.

again, sexuality is most definately biological and, as such, should be 'explicable'.

However, this thread is an attempt to mock Christians believing that he has put an end to his sin in homosexuality. So in this thread, we're dealing with Christians and their beliefs. It's no surprise that non-Christians would just point their fingers and laugh for no good reason.

to a certain extent it is about beliefs, and to expand on this, yes, i do laugh at some christians for their beliefs, but only because they are sometimes so fucking ridiculous. some, and i have heard this from their mouths, explain that homosexuality cannot be biological, because to admit this would be to admit that god made them this way. never mind the science, or even the potential for science to explain it. it simply cannot be biological because their understanding of the bible is such that its disallowed.

if you saw a dude in his field looking to the bible to understand why his wheat wasn't growing, what would you think? you might feel sorry for him. but when he was elected to congress and insisted that everyone turn to their bibles and nothing else to determine the problems with their fields, you might get a bit pissed.

They do that at everything a Christian does.

i don't ever remember laughing at anything mother theresa did - one of the few true christians (insert scotsman) i have ever read about.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by imind

but we are not inherently liars, cheaters, stealers (well, most of us, anyway), these things, these actions are not inate needs living creatures experience.

Wrong. We are inherently evil. Our instinctual needs and desires are very similar to those of animals. As I've said before, one of the things that separates us from animals is our ability to discern right from wrong, and consider the consequences of our actions. We are able to think beyond of initial desires.

But we inherently are driven to do things we shouldn't. Kids are not taught to be bad, but they are. They in fact have to be taught to be good, and do right. Why is this?

[motivez]

Good and Bad is a different concept than Good and Evil. One deals with morals, the other deals with a situation relative to some set of standards.

There's nothing wrong with homosexuality unless you're looking at it from some (imo) outdated concept of religious morality, and there's tons and tons of examples of homosexual activity in the 'animal world.' That, along with what we do know about sexuality from a scientific standpoint leads me to believe that it's not a choice one makes due to sin, or whatever other idiotic concept.

We can't control who or what we're attracted to, we just are. Whether or not we decide to act on those feelings is another discussion. Abnormal doesn't mean bad or evil.

[imind]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Wrong. We are inherently evil. Our instinctual needs and desires are very similar to those of animals. As I've said before, one of the things that separates us from animals is our ability to discern right from wrong, and consider the consequences of our actions. We are able to think beyond of initial desires.

But we inherently are driven to do things we shouldn't. Kids are not taught to be bad, but they are. They in fact have to be taught to be good, and do right. Why is this?

ballz, we do not lie just to lie, cheat just to cheat, kill just to kill. it could be argued that selfishness (i'm defining selfishness as the root cause of the above) is inate, but lying, cheating, and stealing are not, for instance, governed by hormonal activity, at least not to the extent that sexuality is.

kids may need to be told not to 'do bad things', but i bet they would eventually realize the benefit of not doing them even if they weren't told.

We are inherently evil.

i disagree with this. animals are not evil. even with their limited intellectual capacity, sharing, for instance, happens all the time.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Nonphixion

The male prostitute who disclosed Haggards repeated visits to him was on CNN after the story broke, stating;

"It's hard to picture a man like Ted Haggard -- after giving oral sex, saying he is completely heterosexual after just a 3 week stay in the desert. I just can't imagine that happening"

Yeah, exactly. This guy preached every day about how wrong it is, he didn't wake up one day and decide to go suck a dick because he made a decision to be attracted to it, he just felt an overwhelming desire to partake of the cock.

He may decide not to act on his natural sexual tendencies in the future because of the social repercussions in the Christian community he built his adult life on, but that doesn't mean they're not going to be there or that he can be 'cured' of it.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by imind

i disagree with this. animals are not evil. even with their limited intellectual capacity, sharing, for instance, happens all the time.

Animals kill for survival. Animals in fact will do what's necessary to survive, no matter what.

We too would do the same, if that meant stealing, lying, cheating, or killing. We however are smarter than that, and find ways to go above our innate instincts.

[imind]

Animals kill for survival. Animals in fact will do what's necessary to survive, no matter what.

will all animals eat their own kind in times of starvation? there are limits.

We too would do the same, if that meant stealing, lying, cheating, or killing. We however are smarter than that, and find ways to go above our innate instincts.

some of them, yes, but people will never stop having sex, and they will continue to have sex even when a child is the last thing they need/want, even though sex is the means to reproduce. this is indicative of the need for sex, and speaks to how great the drive for sex is.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Animals kill for survival. Animals in fact will do what's necessary to survive, no matter what.

We too would do the same, if that meant stealing, lying, cheating, or killing. We however are smarter than that, and find ways to go above our innate instincts.

Funny, you said smarter than that. And not god wants us to not steal, so we don't.

[mididoctors]

Most homophobia strikes me as a manifestation of a externalized self loathing. A directed outwards self hate ...

Homophobia is gay

Boris
london