Can the Dome of the Rock and the 3rd Temple can sit side by side?

Dumpy Dooby · 02-09-2007, 01:17 PM

Archeologist: Ancient cistern proves location of Second Temple
By ETGAR LEFKOVITS

An Israeli archeologist said Wednesday that he has pinpointed the exact location of the Second Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount.

The site identified by Hebrew University archeologist Prof. Joseph Patrich, based on the study of a large underground cistern on the Temple Mount and passages from the Mishna, places the Temple and its corresponding courtyards, chambers and gates in a more southeasterly and diagonal frame of reference compared to previous studies.

Patrich based his research, which is about to be published, on a study of a large underground cistern on the Temple Mount that was mapped by British engineer Sir Charles Wilson in 1866 on behalf of the Palestine Exploration Fund, along with passages from the Mishna.

The giant cistern, 4.5 meters wide and 54 meters long, lay near the southeastern corner of the upper platform of the Temple Mount. Examining the location and configuration of the cistern together with descriptions of the daily rite in the Temple and its surroundings found in the Mishna, Patrich said that this cistern is the only one found on the Temple Mount that can tie in with the ancient rabbinic text describing elements involved in the daily purification and sacrificial duties carried out by the priests on the altar in the Temple courtyard.

On this basis, he says, one can reconstruct the placement of a large basin that was used by the priests for their ritual washing, with the water being drawn by a waterwheel mechanism from the cistern.

After this purification, the priests ascended the nearby ramp to the sacrificial altar.

By thus locating the laver, the water wheel, the ramp and the altar, one can then finally map, again in coordination with the Mishna, the alignment of the Temple itself and its gates and chambers, he said.

These considerations led Patrich to place the Second Temple further to the east and south than earlier thought, and at a southeasterly angle relative to the eastern wall of the Temple Mount, and not perpendicular to it, as earlier assumed.

Patrich said that his research indicates that the rock over which the Dome of the Rock was built in the 7th century CE is actually outside the confines of the Temple.

The rock is believed to be the place at which the binding of Isaac took place, while Muslims consider it to be the spot from which Muhammad ascended to heaven.

The Temple Mount is Judaism's holiest site as the ancient compound where the two Jewish Temples stood, and is Islam's third holiest site after Mecca and Medina.

Archeologist: Ancient cistern proves location of Second Temple | Jerusalem Post

So what do you think? This isn't really something that I know a lot about, but I'd like to know what others think of this.

Dylith · 02-09-2007, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

The rock is believed to be the place at which the binding of Isaac took place, while Muslims consider it to be the spot from which Muhammad ascended to heaven.

For what it's worth the Muslim's view this rock as both the place where Isaac was bound (as do the Jews) and as the place that Muhammad was lead by the angel Gabriel into Heaven to speak with the other prophets and asked about issues like how many times per day a Muslim should pray. (Note: this is not the place that Muhammad died).

In Mecca there is the Kaba which is considered to be (by both the early Jews of the area and the Muslims as the place where Abraham built an altar to God. And Medina is the place where the phophet Muhammad chose to live out his life.

The Temple Mount is Judaism's holiest site as the ancient compound where the two Jewish Temples stood, and is Islam's third holiest site after Mecca and Medina.

This is pretty accurate. The Dome of the Rock also has a different significance in the fact that it was THE mark that seperated Islam from all of the other heretical offshoots of Christianity in the eyes of the west. It is a testament to the independance of Islam as a seperate religion. Hence one of the reasons why it (the building) is so important.

Nonphixion · 02-09-2007, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

The Temple Mount is Judaism's holiest site as the ancient compound where the two Jewish Temples stood, and is Islam's third holiest site after Mecca and Medina.

Archeologist: Ancient cistern proves location of Second Temple | Jerusalem Post

So what do you think? This isn't really something that I know a lot about, but I'd like to know what others think of this.

An interesting point in that last paragraph...

I saw a report on this, playing on the BBC international news just this moring. Apparently the Israelis closed down the temple and lied about the work being done there, saying it was "simply a minor clean up job inside the temple" as they fired cans tear gas into the gathering crowds of upset Palestinians. You could hear the explosions.

But in ALL fairness to the Israelis, it was closed to both jews and to Palestinians, no one could pray there while they sent their Israeli archaeologists into the temple for this so-called minor "cleanup job" inside.

Even though it is on still-disputed and by rightful and just international law is unowned land. It is not under the right of Israel to temporarily condemn a temple, and isolate it from the rest of the religious world who would wish to pray and observe there.

Dumpy Dooby · 02-09-2007, 05:51 PM

My Jewish friend wrote this in response to my inquiry regarding the Dome.

In islam, jerusalem is the number three holiest city, although the Qur'an doesn't mention it by name even once. It was said that the angel Gabriel took Mohammed one night over to "the farthest mosque" (interpreted as the Holy Mount)...they also believe that Muhammad ascended to heaven at this point. The rock contained is said to be the foundation stone upon which all the world was created. The jews believe that the rock was the spot where jacob laid his head down and dreamed of the ladder to heaven.

Jewish prophecy states that the 3rd temple must be rebuilt by the messiah to usher in the messanic age. Christians want the jews to rebuild the temple because they believe that it'll bring back jesus. Furthermore, i've been doing a bit of Torah study and discovered a prophecy by Obadiah that may r may not be relevant to the Temple Mount area.

Obadiah 1:10-17

For the violence done to thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever. In the day that thou didst stand aloof, in the day that strangers carried away his substance, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.

But thou shouldest not have gazed on the day of thy brother in the day of his disaster, neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.

Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of My people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have gazed on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity.

Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.

For the day of the L-rd is near upon all the nations; as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee; thy dealing shall return upon thine own head.
For as ye have drunk upon My holy mountain, so shall all the nations drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and swallow down, and shall be as though they had not been.

But in mount Zion there shall be those that escape, and it shall be holy; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

Ob 1:19-21

And they of the South shall possess the mount of Esau, and they of the Lowland the Philistines; and they shall possess the field of Ephraim, and the field of Samaria; and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel, that are among the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath, and the captivity of Jerusalem, that is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the South.

And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the L-rd's.

a little harsh, i think, but whatev.

Dylith · 02-11-2007, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

My Jewish friend wrote this in response to my inquiry regarding the Dome.

In islam, jerusalem is the number three holiest city, although the Qur'an doesn't mention it by name even once.

It was built way after the time of Muhammad and even after the rule of the Rashidun. Personally I think that paying homage to a rock, is borderlining Idoltry in a religion that doesn't even allow the depiction of religious symbols or of any living things in it's mosques. I would say that the Dome of the Rock's most important aspect is what it represents, which as I said before, was the rise of Islam as it's own independant religion and as a major world influence.

It was said that the angel Gabriel took Mohammed one night over to "the farthest mosque" (interpreted as the Holy Mount)...they also believe that Muhammad ascended to heaven at this point.

Accurate, Muhammad goes up into the various levels of heavens and speaks with different prophets, one of the things they talk about is how many times a Muslim should pray a day.

Christians want the jews to rebuild the temple because they believe that it'll bring back jesus.

I was under the impression that a lot of Christians saw Jesus as the third temple. "If you destroy this temple I shall rebuild it in three days."

I have read a lot of articles talking about some Christians fully supporting the nation of Israel simply because they think that it will bring about the end times.

Furthermore, i've been doing a bit of Torah study and discovered a prophecy by Obadiah that may r may not be relevant to the Temple Mount area.

I always saw this as referring to the Edomites and the nation of Edom which was located in modern day southern Israel and was destroyed during the Jewish-Roman wars.

Interesting take on it though, I suppose it depends on how you date the book. Personally I usually go with the invasion by Babylon, but if you go by the Philistine/Arab attack on Jerusalem your understanding of the prophecy might make more sense.

RX Bandit · 02-14-2007, 04:42 PM

Sorry for the caps, it was easier to copy/paste than re-write the entire bloc.

5. FOR OVER 3,300 YEARS, JERUSALEM WAS THE JEWISH CAPITAL. IT WAS NEVER THE CAPITAL OF ANY ARAB OR MUSLIM ENTITY. EVEN UNDER JORDANIAN RULE, (EAST) JERUSALEM WAS NOT MADE THE CAPITAL, AND NO ARAB LEADER CAME TO VISIT IT;
6. JERUSALEM IS MENTIONED OVER 700 TIMES IN THE BIBLE, BUT NOT ONCE IS IT MENTIONED IN THE QUR'AN;
7. KING DAVID FOUNDED JERUSALEM; MOHAMMED NEVER SET FOOT IN IT;
8. JEWS PRAY FACING JERUSALEM; MUSLIMS FACE MECCA. IF THEY ARE BETWEEN THE TWO CITIES, MUSLIMS PRAY FACING MECCA, WITH THEIR BACKS TO JERUSALEM;
9. IN 1948, ARAB LEADERS URGED THEIR PEOPLE TO LEAVE, PROMISING TO CLEANSE THE LAND OF JEWISH PRESENCE. 68% OF THEM FLED WITHOUT EVER SETTING EYES ON AN ISRAELI SOLDIER;
10. VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE JEWISH POPULATION OF MUSLIM COUNTRIES HAD TO FLEE AS THE RESULT OF VIOLENCE AND POGROMS;
11. SOME 630,000 ARABS LEFT ISRAEL IN 1948, WHILE CLOSE TO A MILLION JEWS WERE FORCED TO LEAVE THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES;
15. DURING THE JORDANIAN OCCUPATION, JEWISH HOLY SITES WERE VANDALIZED AND WERE OFF LIMITS TO JEWS. UNDER ISRAELI RULE, ALL MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN HOLY SITES ARE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL FAITHS;
17. THE U.N. WAS SILENT WHEN THE JORDANIANS DESTROYED 58 SYNAGOGUES IN THE OLD CITY OF JERUSALEM. IT REMAINED SILENT WHILE JORDAN SYSTEMATICALLY DESECRATED THE ANCIENT JEWISH CEMETERY ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, AND IT REMAINED SILENT WHEN JORDAN ENFORCED APARTHEID LAWS PREVENTING JEWS FROM ACCESSING THE TEMPLE MOUNT AND WESTERN WALL.

Of particular interest are the last lines. As someone who supports the building of the third temple it seems rather clear in black and white terms that al-Aqsa and the third temple never will be able to sit by side.

A perfect world parallel would be the Hagia Sophia in Turkey. Once an ornate church, then after the Ottomans overtook Constantinople it became a mosque, now it is a museum. But honestly the muslims would never sacrifice the THIRD most holiest place that Mohammed never even viewed with his own two eyes to become a museum, and we shouldn't really fault them for it, because it is to be expected.

Jerusalem is supposed to be internationally neutral land but sure enough the synagogues were desecrated like they had been in Nazi Germany and the international community sat around whistling looking the other way. When the Cave of the Patriarchs incident happened (the mosque was hardly harmed at all) the US State Department and Israel declared two legitimate political parties "terrorist organizations" when Baruch had not been an overt member of either.

US involvement in the holy land has been to the detriment of the Jewish people more often than not, and these are the kinds of incidents that go largely unnoticed. How this ties into the third temple is that it will never gain support and will never come to fruition will the Dome of the Rock still stands as a religious symbol of Islam.

Dylith · 02-14-2007, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by RX Bandit

Of particular interest are the last lines. As someone who supports the building of the third temple it seems rather clear in black and white terms that al-Aqsa and the third temple never will be able to sit by side.

If the city was set up being controlled by an international regime under the UN instead of belonging to one side or another The Jews could build a new temple. The problem is that there is more to the religious complex than the mere Dome of the Rock. Where to put it without knocking things down and that would satisfy the Jews?

I am really for Jerusalem being neutral and not controlled by either the Palestinians or Israel. Problem is both sides want to make it their capital.

But honestly the muslims would never sacrifice the THIRD most holiest place that Mohammed never even viewed with his own two eyes to become a museum, and we shouldn't really fault them for it, because it is to be expected.

I already explained its significance above. . .twice. There is even a warning sign outside of the complex posted by a religious head in Israel stating that Jews shouldn't enter the area as it is suppose to be holy.

The Dome of the Rock is a temple dedicated to God and Jews aren't even suppose to enter the area, why even build a new one?

Diamond Cross · 02-14-2007, 08:50 PM

So why not build a new temple for the Jews on their holy spot for them to worship God that doesn't allow Arabians to enter?

Dylith · 02-14-2007, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

So why not build a new temple for the Jews on their holy spot for them to worship God that doesn't allow Arabians to enter?

I'm not sure you are understanding. Even if a third temple was built on the temple mount Jews may not even be able to enter it as the Torah forbids it.

That sign was not issued by Arabs it was issued by a Jewish religious authority.

Dumpy Dooby · 02-14-2007, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by Dylith

I'm not sure you are understanding. Even if a third temple was built on the temple mount Jews may not even be able to enter it as the Torah forbids it.

That sign was not issued by Arabs it was issued by a Jewish religious authority.

In case there's still confusion, the Torah is believed to be the words of God as they were said to Moses. They are inerrant and unchanging. In other words, God himself forbids them from entering it.

This brings me to one of the things that I like about Judaism. God forbids them from entering it because they are his "chosen people." That is, they don't claim that NOBODY may enter. They only claim that Jews may not enter. Nothing bad will happen to me if I enter, but they're in big trouble if they enter.

I like that. It's part of the reason why you don't see Jews trying to legislate Jewish laws in our states. The Jews believe that many of the rules only apply to them, and nobody else. People often mistake the "chosen" thing for being arrogant, like they are "chosen" to be #1 or something. That's really not the case. Really, it's a burden to them, but they accept it because it is their duty as commanded by God.